Official Toni Smith thread....

[spinaltap]

I would like to ask NEM if he knows Toni Smith. The crap that comes out of there brains is similar in texture and smell. My question is, if the United States is soooooo terrible, why do these people take residence here? Why does Toni Smith accept funds from the "evil" US government so she can attend school? Why is she getting so much freakin attention?! Will someone please answer these questions that boggle my mind? thank you.

[dropKickMurphy]

Of course the US Constitution guarantees her Freedom of Speech. This does not, however mean that her school has to provide a public forum for her to express her views. Institutions of higher learning in this country have not exactly distinguished themselves as bastions of free speech in recent years. Quite the opposite. Speech codes and other limits to free speech have been imposed for the purpose of eliminating speech which is deemed "offensive".....as long as it offends the correct group.
To anyone who would defend the actions of Toni Smith, I would ask this question: What would your position be if Ms. Smith had chosen to take the court brandishing a swastika tatoo or a KKK headband?
Face it. Most of the people defending, even praising Smith's actions as 'couragious' would be the first people to call for her head if she took a racially offensive stand. Yet, her little act is every bit as offensive to many Americans as a swastika would be to a concentration camp survivor. If you would defend Toni Smith's actions, would you not also have to defend the words and actions of John Rocker and Marge Schott?

[pookie]

Originally posted by dropKickMurphy
Of course the US Constitution guarantees her Freedom of Speech. This does not, however mean that her school has to provide a public forum for her to express her views. Institutions of higher learning in this country have not exactly distinguished themselves as bastions of free speech in recent years. Quite the opposite. Speech codes and other limits to free speech have been imposed for the purpose of eliminating speech which is deemed "offensive".....as long as it offends the correct group.
To anyone who would defend the actions of Toni Smith, I would ask this question: What would your position be if Ms. Smith had chosen to take the court brandishing a swastika tatoo or a KKK headband?
Face it. Most of the people defending, even praising Smith's actions as 'couragious' would be the first people to call for her head if she took a racially offensive stand. Yet, her little act is every bit as offensive to many Americans as a swastika would be to a concentration camp survivor. If you would defend Toni Smith's actions, would you not also have to defend the words and actions of John Rocker and Marge Schott?

Good comparative view DKM.

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but every time I see that crap with her standing back to the flag I want somebody to kick her right in the chops. But her parents and other adults around her are oh, so proud of her. I enjoyed the video footage that they captured of the old gentleman who is a Vietnam vet running out on the floor and throwing an American flag over her.

Like you said DKM, what if she showed up with Muslims Suck T-shirt? That wouldn't be too cool, would it?

(Source:collegesports.com)

"Smith was greeted by midshipmen at the U.S. Merchant Marine game with chants of "Leave our country" and "U-S-A". Now there's a twisted irony in the fact that the very people who protect our freedom to speak our minds are telling someone who demonstrates that freedom to get the hell out.

Sure, the midshipmen have just as much of a right to speak out against what Smith believes in as she does to make her silent protest. But what is the more American virtue on display here -- standing up in protest for one's beliefs in the face of adversity or telling that person to leave because her views don't mesh with the norm?


(Emphasis added. The irony is entirely your own.)

[bideau]

Originally posted by dropKickMurphy
Of course the US Constitution guarantees her Freedom of Speech. This does not, however mean that her school has to provide a public forum for her to express her views. Institutions of higher learning in this country have not exactly distinguished themselves as bastions of free speech in recent years. Quite the opposite. Speech codes and other limits to free speech have been imposed for the purpose of eliminating speech which is deemed "offensive".....as long as it offends the correct group.
To anyone who would defend the actions of Toni Smith, I would ask this question: What would your position be if Ms. Smith had chosen to take the court brandishing a swastika tatoo or a KKK headband
Face it. Most of the people defending, even praising Smith's actions as 'couragious' would be the first people to call for her head if she took a racially offensive stand. Yet, her little act is every bit as offensive to many Americans as a swastika would be to a concentration camp survivor. If you would defend Toni Smith's actions, would you not also have to defend the words and actions of John Rocker and Marge Schott?

The right of free speech is very complex and I don't pretend to understand the matter in any legal detail. But I do believe that you're stretching your argument with that last statement. I can defend a person's right to state an opinion , but at the same time disagree with what they're saying.

Don't confuse defending Ms. Smith's right to her protest with defending the act itself. She can turn her back to the flag, but people in the stands also have every right to vocalize their opposition to her stand. The same is true for Schott and Rocker. They have a right to vocalize their racist views, but I have every right to condemn them. The KKK has every right to march down Main St. I have every right to stand there and shout them down.

When does free speech cross the lines of being just distasteful and becoming illegal? When does free speech become a hate crime? I'm not entirely sure, but I do know that this thread has the potential to turn into one hell of a flame fest.

[bideau]

One little bit of irony here is that by condemning her, we are actually giving her the forum she sought in the first place. If we had just treated her as the naive little twit that she is, she probably would have gotten bored with the whole thing and eventually given up.

I once heard someone ask: What would happen if the KKK threw a rally and no one showed up to protest?

[spinaltap]

I am looking for anyone (besides NEM) that can give me a GOOD reason why this girl is called "courageous". I think she is a complete coward, not courageous. My view is this: If she hates this country so much she should move to another country, one she loves. This girl is just plain stupid. I am not saying that because she does not hold the same views that I do. I am saying that because she doesn't even know what she is protesting. She is just a little girl who has been brain washed by a bunch of hippies who can't let the Gore thing go. If she really wanted to be courageous, she should reject any federal aid she gets for her tuition.

[pookie]

Originally posted by bideau
.........but I do know that this thread has the potential to turn into one hell of a flame fest.

I hear ya...... and Freedom of Speech is totally exploited by many. It's just one protest after another against anything, anyone, anytime... Whatever the whacko flavor of the month is.

Now we've got the KKK going down to Augusta to protest FOR Augusta National in response to Martha Burk and her cronies protesting against Augusta. What a cluster F that's going to be. While I don't necessarily care which way Augusta goes with their decisions on allowing women into their club, I sure as hell wouldn't want the KKK protesting on my behalf! Yikes.

[bideau]

Originally posted by shurkis
I am looking for anyone (besides NEM) that can give me a GOOD reason why this girl is called "courageous". I think she is a complete coward, not courageous. My view is this: If she hates this country so much she should move to another country, one she loves. This girl is just plain stupid. I am not saying that because she does not hold the same views that I do. I am saying that because she doesn't even know what she is protesting. She is just a little girl who has been brain washed by a bunch of hippies who can't let the Gore thing go. If she really wanted to be courageous, she should reject any federal aid she gets for her tuition.

There are different flavors of courage. A firefighter who rushed into a burning building shows courage in its most sacred and heroic form. A safety who collides head-on with a 230 LB back show courage in a different way. A person who ties an elastic to their ankles and jumps off a bridge is courageous, although its a foolish courage. Is Toni Smith courageous, yes I believe she is, although its a misguided courage. There are not alot of us who would be willing to stand in front of thousands of jeering people to take stand on any issue, misguided or not. I would in turn challenge you to tell us why she's a coward.

For an article in defense of her actions, go to this link on ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html

[pookie]

Originally posted by bideau
There are different flavors of courage. A firefighter who rushed into a burning building shows courage in its most sacred and heroic form. A safety who collides head-on with a 230 LB back show courage in a different way. A person who ties an elastic to their ankles and jumps off a bridge is courageous, although its a foolish courage. Is Toni Smith courageous, yes I believe she is, although its a misguided courage. There are not alot of us who would be willing to stand in front of thousands of jeering people to take stand on any issue, misguided or not. I would in turn challenge you to tell us why she's a coward.

For an article in defense of her actions, go to this link on ESPN.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/wiley/030228.html

I don't know that I'd call her a coward either, as she certainly has some balls or courage, if you will.

But in the same way.... A person that holds up a bank, then gets into a long standoff with armed police and swat teams would also be courageous in that similar type of beligerent way, wouldn't they?

[bideau]

Originally posted by pookie
I don't know that I'd call her a coward either, as she certainly has some balls or courage, if you will.

But in the same way.... A person that holds up a bank, then gets into a long standoff with armed police and swat teams would also be courageous in that similar type of beligerent way, wouldn't they?

Yes, my point exactly. I called her courage misguided. A bank robber has courage, but it in no way is the same type of courage as that firefighter or a soldier fighting in defense of our country. Courage is not always a noble trait.

Originally posted by bideau
One little bit of irony here is that by condemning her, we are actually giving her the forum she sought in the first place.

I am doing anything BUT condemning her. Let's get that much straight. I support her fully. I think the author of the article that I quoted summarized the issues as eloquently and logically as possible.

[bideau]

Originally posted by NoRespect
I am doing anything BUT condemning her. Let's get that much straight. I support her fully. I think the author of the article that I quoted summarized the issues as eloquently and logically as possible.

My irony statement wasn't targeted at anyone specifically. It was meant for those who are so fervently against her, almost to the point of violence. They're trying to shout her down, but in doing so are making the story into a headliner, therfore giving it more publicity than it would have gotten had they just ignored her. People who wouldn't have normally taken a look at what she's trying to say are now looking at the issues.

BTW, here's another bit of irony. I'm defending her right to protest but I haven't got a clear idea what her stand is. Can someone summarize her grievances?

[spinaltap]

She is simply not a courageous person. Courage is a word that is used too often in society today. I think courage is a sacred word that should be used only where applicable. To me, people use courage in the same context that many sports players are referred to as "great" when they are just good. She is a coward because she is not rejecting her federal tuition assistance to make her stand. She is a coward because she enjoys the protection that the US government provides her, rather than denouncing such protection and becoming a citizen of another country. She is a coward because all she does is turn her back to the flag. If she really had any balls, she would be over in Iraq with operation "human shield". Do you think that those nimrods also have courage? I would argue they are just stupid people, much like miss Smith.

[dropKickMurphy]

Originally posted by NoRespect
Sure, the midshipmen have just as much of a right to speak out against what Smith believes in as she does to make her silent protest. But what is the more American virtue on display here -- standing up in protest for one's beliefs in the face of adversity or telling that person to leave because her views don't mesh with the norm?

Come on, NR. Nobody's telling her "to leave because her views don't mesh with the norm". It's not her views, it's the particular method she chooses to get her point across. If she cannot in good conscience stand respectfully during the national anthem, she could have arranged to remain in the locker room until it was over.
The freedom to debate our political differences is a sacred right. We all have a reponsibility to defend it. That means standing up for the rights of people with whom you do not agree. That requires a basic level of respect for their beliefs.
That's where a lot of people have a problem with Smith's actions. It's one thing to disagree with the administration's policies, it's quite another to actively turn your back on the flag in front of a large crowd of American citizens. She is purposely showing disrespect, and her actions are a blatant insult to many....PARTICULARLY to the members of the armed forces. These cadets are graduating during war time. They realize that they, and many of their classmates may very well end up giving their lives in service to this country, defending the rights of a spoiled, misguided young woman to publicly mock what they stand for.
So, what IS the more American virtue on display here? I guess that once again, NR, we view things from a different frame of reference. You do present a thoughtful, reasonable point of view, whereas Ms. Smith demonstrates nothing but scorn for this country. You can stay, but she has got to go.