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Old 08-07-2019, 10:13 AM   #2041
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The Very Stable Genius, is making himself look like a Very Stable Genius when compared to the howls and accusations coming from the moonbat left....

The president highlighted a Twitter account believed to belong to the Dayton shooter, who was shot dead at the scene, that tweeted messages of support for 2020 Democratic presidential candidates Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) as well as the left-wing group antifa.

“That was a person that supported, I guess you could say Bernie Sanders, I understood. Antifa, I understood. Elizabeth Warren, I understood. It had nothing to do with President Trump,” Trump told reporters. “I don’t blame Elizabeth Warren. I don’t blame Bernie Sanders. These are sick people."


https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...eople-together

You know...we have reached the point where a perfectly reasonable, sane, logical, and obvious truth has become shock talk in modern political debate.

Bravo, Mr. President! Well stated!
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:23 AM   #2042
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Notice how he says he doesn't blame Sanders or Warren (they blame him for the sun going down everyday) but doesn't mention ANTIFA? I believe something is in the works for that terrorists organization.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:38 AM   #2043
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For me it's simple:

The reason the second amendment exists is so we can defend ourselves from the government. That's why it reads "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Obviously it's not referring to the government or militias right to bear arms. The government would never infringe on its own right to arm soldiers, police officers, or the militia, and if they decided to more power to them.

Instead, it says 'since we have to have a militia, and the government gets guns, the people get guns too, and the government can't stop them'.

Per the second amendment, anything the government allows to be wielded by law enforcement agencies, the militia, the national guard, or any other government agent working on US soil should also be freely available for use by the general population, and their right to do so shall not be infringed.

The key word there is infringed, which means "act so as to limit or undermine, encroach on". Ignore for a moment the fact that they've gotten away with it and we've routinely allowed jurisprudence and the will of 9 people to substitute for constitutional amendments and undermine our rights. Background checks, red flag laws, ANYTHING that encroaches on or limits our right to bear arms is clearly illegal per the second amendment of the US constitution and will be until and unless a constitutional amendment has passed.

After all, a government agency determining who does and does not get to own guns defeats the entire point of the second amendment. Many in modern times are so comfortable they can't imagine a civil war or rebellion against the government, but protecting the ability of that to occur is why the second amendment exists.

Sure it's the style of the day to give murdering psychopaths a platform and infamy in the media, to celebrate their actions and thus promote further violence, but let's be real. Mass shootings are so far down on the list of actual problems the US faces. Last year we lost 387 people to mass shootings, using the very broadest definition possible. We lost over 300,000 to preventable, obesity related deaths. We lost 68,500 to drug overdoses. We lost another 47,000 to suicide. 37,000 people died due to traffic fatalities, with nearly 11,000 dying from drunk driving incidents.

I'm not saying working on one thing requires ignoring another thing. I am saying there are things we can work on, such as requiring mandatory breathalyzer based ignitions to ensure the driver is not drunk, which will have FAR more impact and don't require a constitutional amendment.

As to the 1 in a million who die to a psychopath before they themselves are gunned down? I'm sorry for their loss. Truly I am. I know it's little consolation to them that mass shootings kill fewer people than heat stroke each year. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the freedoms of the nation so the survivors and loved ones of victims can feel better about it, or safer, or whatever.

So for those who want to "do something" about mass shootings, I ask- is your goal to save lives, or to take away guns? If it's to save lives, you're looking in the wrong place. Almost no one actually dies to them, no matter how much the media may obsess over them. Probably the best thing we could do to prevent them (short of a constitutional amendment) is to ignore them and let the shooter rot in obscurity, take away some of the incentive for them in the first place. If your goal is to take away guns, well, I'm opposed to your goals and will fight tooth and nail against what it'll actually take to do that, which is again a constitutional amendment.

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Old 08-07-2019, 11:45 AM   #2044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giant Octopodes View Post
For me it's simple:

The reason the second amendment exists is so we can defend ourselves from the government. That's why it reads "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

Obviously it's not referring to the government or militias right to bear arms. The government would never infringe on its own right to arm soldiers, police officers, or the militia, and if they decided to more power to them.

Instead, it says 'since we have to have a militia, and the government gets guns, the people get guns too, and the government can't stop them".

Per the second amendment, anything the government allows to be wielded by law enforcement agencies, the militia, the national guard, or any other government agent working on US soil should also be freely available for use by the general population, and their right to do so shall not be infringed.

The key word there is infringed, which means "act so as to limit or undermine, encroach on". Ignore for a moment the fact that they've gotten away with it and we've routinely allowed jurisprudence and the will of 9 people to substitute for constitutional amendments and undermine our rights. Background checks, red flag laws, ANYTHING that encroaches on or limits our right to bear arms is clearly illegal per the second amendment of the US constitution and will be until and unless a constitutional amendment has passed.

After all, a government agency determining who does and does not get to own guns defeats the entire point of the second amendment. Many in modern times are so comfortable they can't imagine a civil war or rebellion against the government, but protecting the ability of that to occur is why the second amendment exists.

Sure it's the style of the day to give murdering psychopaths a platform and infamy in the media, to celebrate their actions and thus promote further violence, but let's be real. Mass shootings are so far down on the list of actual problems the US faces. Last year we lost 387 people to mass shootings, using the very broadest definition possible. We lost over 300,000 to preventable, obesity related deaths. We lost 68,500 to drug overdoses. We lost another 47,000 to suicide. 37,000 people died due to traffic fatalities, with nearly 11,000 dying from drunk driving incidents.

I'm not saying working on one thing requires ignoring another thing. I am saying there are things we can work on, such as requiring mandatory breathalyzer based ignitions to ensure the driver is not drunk, which will have FAR more impact and don't require a constitutional amendment.

As to the 1 in a million who die to a psychopath before they themselves are gunned down? I'm sorry for their loss. Truly I am. I know it's little consolation to them that mass shootings kill fewer people than heat stroke each year. But I'm not willing to sacrifice the freedoms of the nation so the survivors and loved ones of victims can feel better about it, or safer, or whatever.

So for those who want to "do something" about mass shootings, I ask- is your goal to save lives, or to take away guns? If it's to save lives, you're looking in the wrong place. Almost no one actually dies to them, no matter how much the media may obsess over them. Probably the best thing we could do to prevent them (short of a constitutional amendment) is to ignore them and let the shooter rot in obscurity, take away some of the incentive for them in the first place. If your goal is to take away guns, well, I'm opposed to your goals and will fight tooth and nail against what it'll actually take to do that, which is again a constitutional amendment.
Very well stated G O but the left doesn't want to hear it, they want it their way come hell or high water.

If Trump tries to go forward on this Red Flag law BS, he will lose a lot of votes, it's a stupid move on his part and hopefully his people will tell him so.
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Old 08-07-2019, 11:45 AM   #2045
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Here's an interesting side bar. After the Japanese decimated our fleet in Pearl Harbor Dec 7, 1941, they could have sent their troop ships and carriers directly to California to finish what they started. The prediction from our Chief of Staff was we would not be able to stop a massive invasion until they reached the Mississippi River. Remember, we had a 2 million man army and war ships in other localities, so why did they not invade?

After the war, the remaining Japanese generals and admirals were asked that question. Their answer....they know that almost every home had guns and the Americans knew how to use them.

1. The world's largest army ... America 's hunters! I had never thought about this....

2. A blogger added up the deer license sales in just a handful of states and arrived at a striking conclusion:

3. There were over 600,000 hunters this season in the state of Wisconsin .

4. Allow me to restate that number.

5. Over the last several months, Wisconsin ’s hunters became the eighth largest army in the world.

6. More men under arms than in Iran .

7. More than in France and Germany combined.

8. These men deployed to the woods of a single American state to hunt with firearms, and no one was killed.

9. That number pales in comparison to the 750,000 who hunted the woods of Pennsylvania and Michigan 's 700,000 hunters,

10. All of whom have now returned home.

11. Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia and it literally establishes the fact that

12. The hunters of those four states alone would comprise the largest army in the world. The number of Hunters in the state of Texas would be the largest standing army in the world by it's self.

13. The point?

14. America will forever be safe from foreign invasion with that kind of home-grown firepower.

15. Hunting -- it's not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of national security.

16. That's why all enemies, foreign and domestic, want to see us disarmed.

17. Food for thought when next we consider gun control.
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Old 08-07-2019, 02:48 PM   #2046
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Old 08-07-2019, 05:23 PM   #2047
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Maybe it's sposed to be an exit wound? I saw a good # of those. They seemed gigantic but .... I don't know.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:29 PM   #2048
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I’d opt for the large hole pic.

It’s to make sure I stop you in your tracks if you’re entering my home with my wife and kids in it.
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Old 08-08-2019, 06:37 AM   #2049
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For anyone that night be interested in the "bullet hole size" stuff;

To make an exit wound that size, you would need something high powered, like a 30-06 or .270 Winchester Magnum, with soft point bullets, and enough body mass to give the bullet time to expand and fragment...about 12" to 18" of penetration through flesh. The bullet would weigh about 170 grains, on average.

For a .223 or 5.56 (basically the same caliber, for purposes here), these bullets are long and skinny, torpedo shaped, and weigh only 55 grains, on average. This is the caliber that AR-15's shoot, generally. You can make or build them to shoot an whole variety of other calibers, but the .223 is what 90% of them shoot.

Now, the thing about being a long, skinny, lightweight, zippy little bullet is that once it hits something soft, such as gelatin or flesh, it destabilizes very quickly. It will tumble and come to a stop fairly quickly.

Whereas one of the calibers I mentioned above will bore a hole right through the target, expanding as it goes, because it is weighty, and fast, and has enormous kinetic energy and momentum, the .223 will hit resistance and slow down almost immediately, dispersing it's kinetic energy by tumbling, and thus will not necessarily make a straight wound channel, but the bullet will act like a knuckleball and kind of hook and curve as it fragments.

What this means is that a .223 round can, in theory, make a hole as large as shown, it would be very unusual, and require the bullet to fragment, most of the fragments to travel together roughly, and each fragment maintain enough kinetic energy to exit the other side. It can be done. It has been done. But it would be a 1 in a million wound.

Mind you, that's not to say the .223 is impotent. It isn't. It is designed to basically mangle internal organs, which it does pretty well. It is not designed to blow big holes in things...for that you need big bullets that are short and fat, not long and skinny lightweight bullets.

I'm not trying to score any points here other than bringing some insight into firearms and design. It should be informative to both sides of the debate.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:39 AM   #2050
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Quote:
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Here's an interesting side bar. After the Japanese decimated our fleet in Pearl Harbor Dec 7, 1941, they could have sent their troop ships and carriers directly to California to finish what they started. The prediction from our Chief of Staff was we would not be able to stop a massive invasion until they reached the Mississippi River. Remember, we had a 2 million man army and war ships in other localities, so why did they not invade?

After the war, the remaining Japanese generals and admirals were asked that question. Their answer....they know that almost every home had guns and the Americans knew how to use them.

Look, it's technically true that any enemy of America has always had to take into account the armed American populace in its battle plans. The Soviets did the same thing during the Cold War, and they also concluded that any non-nuclear war with the US would fail because an invasion would be thwarted by civilians with guns and just the size of the country itself and its resources, and the fact that Soviet armies would be on the other side of the world with supply lines stretched too thin to succeed.


But the Japanese didn't really have the practical capability to invade the West Coast. Pearl Harbor itself was a risky gamble, only succeeded because of absolute secrecy, and was a limited surprise bombing and then a return home.


US carriers were still free and undamaged, and California was simply too far away with most of the Japanese army tied up in its own immediate sphere of influence, especially China, the Philipines and many other places. The US West coast was enormous, and not the same as attacking one small base from the air that was substantially closer to the attacker.


Any attempted invasion of the US mainland by Japan in late 1941 or early 1942 would have been an unmitigated disaster, even if most US civilians had no guns. The US military mobilized quickly when forced to. It wouldn't have worked, and certainly wouldn't have caused the US to sue for peace. One of Japan's fatal flaws in WW2 was a misunderstanding of the mindset, character and temperament of their enemy.


Didn't mean to briefly derail the thread, as I'm pro-2A and mostly agree with the sentiment here.
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:06 AM   #2051
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I think they just didn't want California. Who would?
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:19 AM   #2052
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I think they just didn't want California. Who would?

You joke, but it used to be nice... lol



All kidding aside, the Germans had the same problem. When Hitler foolishly declared war on the US, Hermann Goring basically asked him, "Mein Fuhrer, how will we reach Detroit?"


Meaning, of course, the US was too far away and too big, and the Germans had no capability to damage or destroy the US industrial base. They had no real plan, no endgame scenario to ultimately win. They had no real four engine bomber or aircraft carriers. Hitler actually said that winning against the US might be a question "for the next generation". Yeah, good luck with that, Jerry.


.

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Old 08-08-2019, 08:57 AM   #2053
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The Oceans are the US's greatest defense.

However...if you observe the US's greatest adversaries and military defeats, what has been our greatest enemies?

It's not high tech airplanes, or warships, or tanks. Our greatest adversaries have always been human beings, that are fighting on their home territory, with rifles.

Korea is an excellent example. The United States got it's ass kicked by a bunch of guys defending their home with Mosin Nagants! Bolt action rifles designed in 1891!

Afghanistan? Same thing. Bunch of guys in their homeland with small arms...rifles.

Viet Nam? It wasn't the vaunted North Vietnamese navy or air force that defeated us, was it? IT was a bunch of Viet Namese, with rifles and very little else..mostly running around with sandles and wearing pajamas, for Chrissake. That's all they needed, though.

The most dangerous force on the planet isn't a high tech military. It is men with rifles on their home turf, defending against an invader. Always.

This country was founded by men with small arms fighting against the greatest army and navy on the planet....but we were on our home turf, defending against an invader, with muskets and rifles.

So, whatever the reasons the Japanese and Germans did not invade the US...they would have lost the war. Even if they won all of the battles, they would have lost the war. Why? Because of us. Because of Americans, with small arms, defending our homes against invaders. That's what wins wars.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:03 AM   #2054
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The Oceans are the US's greatest defense.

However...if you observe the US's greatest adversaries and military defeats, what has been our greatest enemies?

It's not high tech airplanes, or warships, or tanks. Our greatest adversaries have always been human beings, that are fighting on their home territory, with rifles.

Korea is an excellent example. The United States got it's ass kicked by a bunch of guys defending their home with Mosin Nagants! Bolt action rifles designed in 1891!

Afghanistan? Same thing. Bunch of guys in their homeland with small arms...rifles.

Viet Nam? It wasn't the vaunted North Vietnamese navy or air force that defeated us, was it?

The most dangerous force on the planet isn't a high tech military. It is men with rifles on their home turf, defending against an invader. Always.

Yes. Asymmetric warfare. We used it in the Revolution against the British, too. You don't have to "win". The trick is to avoid losing long enough that your more powerful enemy becomes tired of expending blood and treasure to continue. Just bleed them and refuse to quit until morale falters on the other side and they decide it's not worth it. That's another thing the Japanese tried against us late in WW2, but in that case it didn't work. The Confederacy tried it but it didn't work for them either. Why didn't it work for Japan and the CSA? Partly because neither had a powerful ally to keep them supplied and supported, indefinitely if needed.


Also, to be fair - Korea was a "win", in that South Korea was kept free, and it still is.


But of course I agree with the general point - an armed and motivated civilian population will always make life difficult for any invader.

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Old 08-08-2019, 09:16 AM   #2055
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I think the vast majority of people consider it a draw...a win would require no North Korea.

But the argument stands, America's greatest adversary and threat is a guy with a rifle and a pair of sandles defending his home. Not even a military guy much of the time...just a civilian that took up arms and joined the local militia.
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Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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