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Old 05-17-2018, 07:25 AM   #466
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By the way, this is not to suggest we should do away with those stories because they aren't histories. We just need to put them in their proper context (mythology) so we can extract the useful information from them.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:58 AM   #467
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If millennials started claiming Harry Potter was a documentary and not a work of fiction, we'd have no problem mocking them for having faith in something nonsensical. Because it is nonsense to believe the story of Harry Potter is historical.

If one day I vehemently argued the reason tides exist is because mighty Thor was tricked by an ice giant into drinking the sea level down through an enchanted ale horn you'd lock me up in a padded cell.

The reason faith is mocked is because under any other context the story people have faith in would never even be considered possible. If tomorrow I posted about my awesome friend who came back from the dead, turned water into wine, and healed cripples with his touch you'd think I'd have gone mad. Yet millions of people believe exactly that because of "faith."
I think the Harry Potter has already happened, much like the people who lived and died with General Hospital and the soap operas of the 80's. And while I will laugh at the Potterville People, Its a wonderful life, I would have no problem with the masses worshipping them, building a Harry Potter Mecca, say in Florida, and visiting, donating a lot of money to do so.



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By the way, this is not to suggest we should do away with those stories because they aren't histories. We just need to put them in their proper context (mythology) so we can extract the useful information from them.
I know a lot of people who are living a better life based on faith. The Big Book has changed many lives, based on the belief in a higher power, of the persons choice, and turning it all over to the higher power.

It works because of Faith... simple faith
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:11 AM   #468
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I think the Harry Potter has already happened, much like the people who lived and died with General Hospital and the soap operas of the 80's. And while I will laugh at the Potterville People, Its a wonderful life, I would have no problem with the masses worshipping them, building a Harry Potter Mecca, say in Florida, and visiting, donating a lot of money to do so.
The reason Harry Potter is so successful is because the story telling follows a mythological structure. It's a hero's journey and JK Rowling got it right. Joseph Campbell laid all this out and almost all of our favorite and most celebrated stories follow a similar path.

Harry Potter works as an work of mythology. Not so much as a history book.

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I know a lot of people who are living a better life based on faith. The Big Book has changed many lives, based on the belief in a higher power, of the persons choice, and turning it all over to the higher power.

It works because of Faith... simple faith
I'd argue mine has as well, but only once I dropped the idea that I was reading a historical text. When read as a history book, the Bible reads as nonsense unless one does so in the context of suspended disbelief. In order to read it that way, I must actively ignore that things I know to be impossible are actually impossible.

That is inherintly unhealthy and leads one wide open to fuckery. (Seed preachers for example.)

On the flip side, if read as mythology, the stories have a depth that is quite frankly missing from a "literal" interpretation.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:41 AM   #469
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The reason Harry Potter is so successful is because the story telling follows a mythological structure. It's a hero's journey and JK Rowling got it right. Joseph Campbell laid all this out and almost all of our favorite and most celebrated stories follow a similar path.

Harry Potter works as an work of mythology. Not so much as a history book.


I'd argue mine has as well, but only once I dropped the idea that I was reading a historical text. When read as a history book, the Bible reads as nonsense unless one does so in the context of suspended disbelief. In order to read it that way, I must actively ignore that things I know to be impossible are actually impossible.

That is inherintly unhealthy and leads one wide open to fuckery. (Seed preachers for example.)

On the flip side, if read as mythology, the stories have a depth that is quite frankly missing from a "literal" interpretation.
I agree it is a word of mouth story passed from generation to generation before being written, translated, Doctored and rewritten.....

We all have days of sitting with friends and talking about the past, how much of that is factual, how much is stretched truth, and how much is fabrication? and that is in 30 years in my case. My kids looked at me and I tell them to take 1/2 those with grain of salt, alcohol was involved in the memories of those telling the tales.

so imagine how much of the Bible was exaggerated, altered, and omitted for grander stories to make Jesus more God-like.

But like you I find the Bible tells more than those grand tales of lore but that doesn't mean the original man who walked the earth was not the son of god, we all are, if you believe in a God. I bet he did rip up the temple in disgust, but walking on water... only on my velvet Jesus painting.

But I respect those who have blind faith. I fall somewhere in the middle, between faith and science. I think one "God" exists - we all just all manipulated the tales to meet our direction.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:50 AM   #470
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The New testament is ultimately a hero myth. Jesus is that cultures ideal man the rest of us should attempt to emulate. That is after all what a hero is. A personified ideal used to show us how to act through a narrative structure.

I love star wars. As a story you can get quite a bit of wisdom out of it. (See Cass sustains book "the world according to Star Wars if you don't believe me). But the moment I start believing the narrative describes a real event things go off the rails very quickly.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:59 AM   #471
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The New testament is ultimately a hero myth. Jesus is that cultures ideal man the rest of us should attempt to emulate. That is after all what a hero is. A personified ideal used to show us how to act through a narrative structure.

I love star wars. As a story you can get quite a bit of wisdom out of it. (See Cass sustains book "the world according to Star Wars if you don't believe me). But the moment I start believing the narrative describes a real event things go off the rails very quickly.
but is it wrong to get wisdom out of a book? I mean the owner manual to my truck has taught me a lot and no one it is nonsensical to trust that book.

I just think it is easy, and kind of low, to constantly tell someone their faith is nonsensical. Most who are reading the bible and living right are not the few who over do it.

I mean I will not mock you for reading Cass (coincidentally I am working on Cass Street right now) and getting wisdom out of star wars, no I will commend you and I often use movies and shows as a way to teach my kids (more so when they were younger). But if go all born-again starwars religious and start walking around dressed like princess Leai trying to kiss your brother I will pause for a bit and wonder and I do that to overly religious people - but in this case most of the posters are not overly religious.

but I do that for anyone who over worships anything, Like that old poster middy and his devotion to Brady.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:51 AM   #472
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The reason Harry Potter is so successful is because the story telling follows a mythological structure. It's a hero's journey and JK Rowling got it right. Joseph Campbell laid all this out and almost all of our favorite and most celebrated stories follow a similar path.

Harry Potter works as an work of mythology. Not so much as a history book.


I'd argue mine has as well, but only once I dropped the idea that I was reading a historical text. When read as a history book, the Bible reads as nonsense unless one does so in the context of suspended disbelief. In order to read it that way, I must actively ignore that things I know to be impossible are actually impossible.

That is inherintly unhealthy and leads one wide open to fuckery. (Seed preachers for example.)

On the flip side, if read as mythology, the stories have a depth that is quite frankly missing from a "literal" interpretation.
And acceptance of the mythological aspect, by freeing you from literal interpretation free's one to interpret the bible (or any such Tome) in a way most applicable, most helpful, to you.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:18 AM   #473
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What I think frustrates non-believers is that believers often speak in absolutes.

"This is what happened", or "It's real because it says so in the bible".

If the wording were something like "I believe it's a true story because it's changed my life" I know I'd have no argument.

What I think frustrates believers is that non-believers use words like "non-nonsensical" or "fantasy" to negate their belief.

As a non-believer, I can admire your faith, but when you claim faith as fact I have difficulty not challenging that.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:38 AM   #474
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Is faith in something we know isn't real something to be admired?

If at 37, I still had faith that Santa Claus was real, would anyone find that admirable? I highly doubt it.

Why then is faith in other unbelieveable things, like supernatural religious claims, something to be admired? There's no other context in which we do this which I tried pointing out examples of how absurd it would be in previous posts.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:43 AM   #475
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And acceptance of the mythological aspect, by freeing you from literal interpretation free's one to interpret the bible (or any such Tome) in a way most applicable, most helpful, to you.
To me, demanding a literal interpretation of the Bible, would be like ordering an ice cream sundae, eating only the cherry, and thinking that is what was important.

There is SO much more underneath the base layer.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:51 AM   #476
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Is faith in something we know isn't real something to be admired?

If at 37, I still had faith that Santa Claus was real, would anyone find that admirable? I highly doubt it.

Why then is faith in other unbelieveable things, like supernatural religious claims, something to be admired? There's no other context in which we do this which I tried pointing out examples of how absurd it would be in previous posts.
why is it impossible for a greater being, science has yet to prove he doesn't exist. Faith is belief, science is proven facts... when have they definitively said god does not exist. show me the proof.


you can't, and that is why this debate exist, but you can have faith in science being right - Science is your God in that case.


and for those with absolutes in religion, they can't prove it happened beyond a word of mouth story - and like the secret passed along a circle, it is never what happened. I too have issues with that along with the change in religion over the years.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:54 AM   #477
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Is faith in something we know isn't real something to be admired?

If at 37, I still had faith that Santa Claus was real, would anyone find that admirable? I highly doubt it.

Why then is faith in other unbelieveable things, like supernatural religious claims, something to be admired? There's no other context in which we do this which I tried pointing out examples of how absurd it would be in previous posts.
Santa existed, Santa Claus comes from Sinter Klaas, the Dutch name for St Nicholas.


Santa is just glorified story of his existence, a wealthy generous man who gifted to others.


I would think cool, too bad he past away in what the 4th century.
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:58 AM   #478
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You can't prove Santa Claus doesn't exist either, but no one would find it admirable for anyone over 10 to think he's real (and actively shimmying down our chimneys to distribute presents)
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Old 05-17-2018, 11:01 AM   #479
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You can't prove Santa Claus doesn't exist either, but no one would find it admirable for anyone over 10 to think it is.
We know he passed away, other than that only his spirit lives on within some of us still so in away he is still alive, but he is worm food today.

here is his tomb

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Old 05-17-2018, 11:14 AM   #480
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I guess anyone who extremes anything is obnoxious and a pain in the ass to those around them.

I respect science and believe in its wonders knowledge, I just think we are learning more and more and have yet to disprove God exist. He may.

I like to think part of me will someday hopefully go to heaven and meet up with family and friends and play a harp if you will. It helps me no be a dick to others. I need that reason to not be a dick.


Others don't.

I am not inherently good, I can always be better to myself and others. I have faith there is a reason I am being a better person than I was 20 years ago. So let me and others believe, it doesn't hurt.

I also have no issue with people getting upset with the devote, closed minded religions, but most here are far from that. Yes we have had a few who were but such a small number when you really look into the big picture.

An example I often use, I am personally pro- life but will support pro-choice, it is not my body - who am I to tell someone to spend 40 weeks carrying a child to term.


I just have seen a birth and think it is the most amazing sight in the world
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