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Old 05-24-2018, 09:07 AM   #16
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Frankly, I doubt this guy is representative of his generation. Maybe it's different in the US, but I coach teenage tennis players and zero of them have any interest in living at home beyond what is necessary (if we are to allow anecdotal evidence!)
I would consider this loser an extreme example of a general sentiment of entitlement and apathy in a generation. The product of "let's not keep score because we don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt", "Everyone gets a trophy", "You are a unique and special snowflake", and all that crap when the Boomers decided their kids shouldn't have to mow lawns and take out the the trash for allowance, their kids should never be spanked, and their kids need to be sheltered from all disappointment and failure.

I think this is one of the early signs of the future socialist generation, where personal responsibility is a sin, and everyone is entitled to live however they want, with no responsibilities, and everything provided to them without any effort on their part.

I think this guy represents the general mindset of the generation, but most don't have the courage or nerve to actually say it.

My only sympathy, and not for this guy, but for the generation, is that they really are the most screwed generation when it comes to getting started in life...they graduate with more debt, less opportunity, lower wages, and higher housing and living expenses than any generation before them did. That is absolutely true.

It's the lack of any self respect or desire to make your own life that gets me, the feeling that they are entitled to be taken care of, and the lack of motivation to overcome obstacles in life. They think that if they apply for a job, they are entitled to get it. They think that their boss is a jerk if they get chewed out for always being late. They think that they should get a raise because they can't afford the payments on their brand spanking new car they just bought, and the boss owes it to them because he drives a new car, the selfish prick.

Believe me...I have seen plenty of this over the last 2-3 years in my own company. One dude got himself a Harley and a shiny, brand new full sized pickup truck, and then actually said he needs to make more money because he can't afford the payments. Nothing about job performance, or reliability...just that he deserved the things he wanted and the boss has an obligation to pay him enough that he can have these things, because who are you to tell me I can't have a Harley and a pickup truck? Seriously...not lying.

I suspect that others here have had similar experiences with this generation....a feeling of entitlement and no sense of the relation of job performance and paycheck.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:23 AM   #17
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I think there are quite a few of the type baron notes out there and also I know plenty of the type Anderson mentioned including my own kids. I’m not sure it’s good to paint an entire generation with one brush either way. Safe to say that there are some who are unprepared for the real world but they will smarten up or else. I do feel bad for those carrying huge college debt. That’s a curse that lives a long time but also a topic in its own right.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:49 AM   #18
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One major issue is that the average person is a complete idiot when it comes to personal finance. Many in the boomer generation still got/get to depend on pensions and so their poor financial planning is eased considerably by retirement income they couldn't spend away on useless junk.

They've passed those poor habits down to their children for whom pensions are a rare find. Now you've got people in their 20s and 30s who literally say "I have no idea how I'll ever be able to retire" which is absolutely crazy. People accepting that they will have to work 40+ years to avoid starving to death in their 60s. It's mania.

And yes boomers have set a shit example. Look at the level of consumer debt, poor individual retirement savings/investments and general overconsumption (giant houses, multiple new cars every 3-5 years, etc.). These things are as present in the boomer households as they are in younger generations. The difference is those houses have appreciated substantially (not a guarantee for people buying now) and pensions are a fail safe for many. Younger people following the same road are setting themselves up for financial disaster.

I'm a millennial. I recognize that there are challenges but I also recognize that there are still plenty of opportunities. I've worked hard for everything I have and could have more if I worked harder or was more skilled/intelligent. Many of my peers are significantly worse off and in many (maybe most) cases, they are worse off because of their own decisions rather than things out of their control. Obviously Canada =/= the US but still, I think the younger generations' obsession with identity politics spills over into their views of opportunities. Their worldview is formed based on the premise that specific groups are oppressors and others are oppressed. If they self-identify as oppressed for any reason at all, it serves to remove responsibility for their failings while they cry about unfair systems and circumstances.

Some of that unfairness is real, but there is also a sizable group who aren't working hard enough or making proper decisions to reach their potential. The supply of intellectual capital is at an all-time higher so you can't be average and expect to stumble into prosperity.

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Old 05-24-2018, 01:06 PM   #19
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The Boomers grew up with credit cards. They were the first generation that credit cards were a part of their every day spending. They are an insidious thing. They give you the ability to satisfy an impulse without having to actually hand over money.

Then, when they grew up a little more, they were told, and they believed it, that their home was their retirement. That it will appreciate in value for ever, and they can keep taking money out of it, and refinancing, indefinitely.

In short....Boomers are the first generation that never saved money for anything, they just financed everything. The Boomers are the first generation that never really had the "we can't afford that" mentality, because...hey...you can just charge it, or finance it.

They are terrible with their money, because they never had to save money to buy things.

You know why poker chips are used instead of cash? Because psychologically, it's easier to push in clay chips than it is to push in a stack of money. It gets people to spend a lot more than they ever would if they were playing with real money on the table.

It's the same with credit cards. Unlike a check, you can charge things on the card, and walk home with it, even if you have nothing in your bank account. YOu don't have to write a check that will bounce, you don't have to take money out of your pocket or your bank account.

"What are you talking about, 'Save money'? Why? I can just charge it right now. Why save, that's stupid."

Boomers are the Norm generation....they just keep putting everything on the tab. They'll pay it someday.

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Old 05-24-2018, 01:19 PM   #20
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IMHO, Gen X (post '64) is the worst generation. They're the ones that spawned most of today's teens and 20 somethings.

I'm near the end of the Boomer generation (1960) and my kids are near the start of the millenials ('83, '84) which generally starts at 1981. I'm not at all being defensive, but my early millenials turned out to be very productive citizens and those I know that they grew up with are generally very good as well. My kids did not see their first home PC until they were in high school. Cell phones were for emergency use only during those formative years, in fact, most families had one phone per household fi they could afford it. I'm not sure when the participation crap started, but I saw it for the first time when my kids started sports. I wasn't sure what to make of it. To their credit, they generally didn't care about the participation trophies and put them in the closet. They kept the ones earned for success on their bureaus.

The screwed up generation are those who were born into the internet era. No social skills to speak of, I'm surprised they know how to procreate. They certainly don't know how to look up and speak directly to you.

But, I recall my parents generation with their own observations of us as we were growing up. Someday, the millenials will be lamenting the children of the 2020's and 2030's, assuming the reproductive organs haven't been evolved out of existence by then.
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:28 PM   #21
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I think you're right in that there is probably an imperfection of using generations because the beginning of the end likely overlapped two of them. Probably safe to say whatever traits we're discussing have been getting worse with each generation, probably starting with late boomer/early millennial. But of course nothing is absolute.
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:37 PM   #22
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I think you're right in that there is probably an imperfection of using generations because the beginning of the end likely overlapped two of them. Probably safe to say whatever traits we're discussing have been getting worse with each generation, probably starting with late boomer/early millennial. But of course nothing is absolute.
True, IMHO, it's more tied to the technology changes which have changed how we socialize and live. My parents used to say it was TV that was the downfall, I would have said video games and MTV (cable in general), then we can move to the internet, smart phones and social media and who knows what else is down the road.

To Baron's point, a greater issue is where we are as an economy. With respect to credit cards, I don't think it's generational, it's ease of use. Credit cards became more common with the advent of magnetic strips which became common in the mid-80's. By then, the youngest boomers were leaving college and the older boomers were already set in their ways. Prior to that, using a credit card was far from easy and would get you the same looks that personal checks get now (if you didn't grow up when credit cards came out, you wouldn't know what I'm talking about). Internet commerce was the warp drove of credit cards, far too easy with instant gratification as a reward. While they're extremely convenient, there are times I think we would be better off going back to a cash society.
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Old 05-24-2018, 01:42 PM   #23
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The financial problems started with the Boomer generation.

Gen X'rs started with the sheltering their kids from any challenge, danger, or disappointments. Also, the Gen X'rs started drugging hteir kids at a young age with behavioral drugs. That's a topic for another day, but I think it is significant....like really significant.

Then came the Internetz, which the millenials grew up with. They don't go outside and play, they have "play dates". They are never unsupervised, they are never in unstructured, unsupervised activities with a number of peers, unless it is in cyberspace in some kind of virtual reality.

So, now we have a generation with no financial skills, sheltered their whole lives, drugged, and supervised their whole lives, with most of their time spent in virtual reality with less human contact than any generation before them outside of their parents and siblings, and we are sending them into a world where middle class jobs are disappearing...you either work retail or Wall Street, wages are down, prices are up, and their devalued college degree cost them the equivalent of a home mortgage that they have to pay off while flipping burgers or stocking shelves at Walmart, and they are imbued with a sense of entitlement from birth and never had to work a day in their lives until they were 18 or 22, not even mowing lawns or delivering newspapers, and they don't understand why the boss is yelling at them instead of sitting them down and calmly explaining to them so they understand, like mommy and daddy always did.

That about sum it up?
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:41 PM   #24
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All you guys make great points. I’ll just add on the social skills and kids interacting virtually, it is noticeable in some kids. My “when I was a kid” lecture was that we played baseball and football and spent all our time together and fought our fights and resolved our differences, and that carried to adulthood.
I was talking to a contractor friend Sunday night at dinner in fact and he was lamenting the shortage of good help. Asked him if he took on any interns from the technical high school and he answered by grabbing his phone and entering a text. Point made.
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:11 PM   #25
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sorry for the multiple posts but started thinking about the credit cards. All that was said about them is true. I got in only slightly over my head as a very young man and learned my lesson. Never carried a balance again.
I made it a point to teach my kids that credit cards are evil, basically. I sat them down and did the math on paper and showed them what the true cost of a purchase was, and the devious tricks the credit card outfits employ to suck you in.
When my son was in school I found out the credit card outfits actually visited campus and set up shop in the lobby and were signing kids up. You'll get approved. I bitched to the administration about it, I don't think that stopped it.
They've been good, my son has been on his own for a while now, not using it except for emergencies. My daughter is just out of college and she has a student card with a 1000.00 line and I told her she didn't need to increase it. She uses it for small purchases and pays it right off to build her credit rating.
What I wish you would see in high school is a class about managing money. I do think as far as my family it was my job to teach that, but some kids might have boomer parents that are also financial dolts and bad habits get passed on, someone needs to teach them.

The other thing I've shown my kids is saving and how that pays off. I showed them my retirement account, with statements from the 80's and statements from today that show where I am at now. Compound interest is an awesome thing when you are saving. Not so much when you are paying it.
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:25 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
The financial problems started with the Boomer generation.

Gen X'rs started with the sheltering their kids from any challenge, danger, or disappointments. Also, the Gen X'rs started drugging hteir kids at a young age with behavioral drugs. That's a topic for another day, but I think it is significant....like really significant.

Then came the Internetz, which the millenials grew up with. They don't go outside and play, they have "play dates". They are never unsupervised, they are never in unstructured, unsupervised activities with a number of peers, unless it is in cyberspace in some kind of virtual reality.

So, now we have a generation with no financial skills, sheltered their whole lives, drugged, and supervised their whole lives, with most of their time spent in virtual reality with less human contact than any generation before them outside of their parents and siblings, and we are sending them into a world where middle class jobs are disappearing...you either work retail or Wall Street, wages are down, prices are up, and their devalued college degree cost them the equivalent of a home mortgage that they have to pay off while flipping burgers or stocking shelves at Walmart, and they are imbued with a sense of entitlement from birth and never had to work a day in their lives until they were 18 or 22, not even mowing lawns or delivering newspapers, and they don't understand why the boss is yelling at them instead of sitting them down and calmly explaining to them so they understand, like mommy and daddy always did.

That about sum it up?
this is the biggest scare to me, the amount of medication handed out.



but not being alone with other kids and learning to work it out is a huge issue too. I fear these kids taking an interview and being told no.


not all mind you but enough that it is an issue.
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:09 PM   #27
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Dee, if you read this, is this a result of over parenting?
I donít think thereís one specific answer but a combination of many issues in any given combination.

College debt, car loans etc. then top that off with low paying jobs, no job, as they try paying off the debt, cost of living in certain states, leaves very little to pay the rent Add the helicopter parenting and everyone gets a trophy certainly leads to the expectation they are owed /entitled more. Some parents put themselves in major debt trying to pay for college for their children and simply can afford to help.

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Old 05-24-2018, 06:24 PM   #28
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On a related note, university has been sold to millennials (and those after) as the greatest experience ever. So much so that universities are racking in money after flinging open their doors and lowering standards tp accommodate the mass influx of applicants. And unfortunately that mass influx has slanted to arts and social science type programs (I'm a grad of these programs). These used to be fine because of transferable skills gained during studies but now what we have is an over-saturation of "educated" and "qualified" youth who feel they are underemployed.

The irony is that it's not some evil market structure keeping people from finding jobs - it's the prioritization of 'finding yourself' or 'pursuing what makes you happy' over planning out a career. People who skipped university in favor of trade or tech schools are not having trouble finding jobs, nor are those who enrolled in sought after degrees in STEM, etc. It shouldn't shock anyone that a mass influx of 'arts grads' with little more than the same shared transferable skills has caused parts of the job market to dry up. But there are others areas that are highly in demand, though few young people take them seriously anymore because they've been sold on the university experience.

I know. I went through it (graduating with a useless degree). Throw in student debt that is ridiculously out of proportion versus the value of the education (if you're in arts/social sciences) and you've got a recipe for a shitty ride into your 30s and 40s for many of them.

And I don't see this getting any better with new parents today because every one I speak with about education spouts off the same non-sense above. Ready to encourage their kids to go into debt for degrees with awful ROI for 'the experience' while crying that the government isn't doing enough to create middle class jobs.
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Old 05-24-2018, 06:42 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by mooseontheloose View Post
On a related note, university has been sold to millennials (and those after) as the greatest experience ever. So much so that universities are racking in money after flinging open their doors and lowering standards tp accommodate the mass influx of applicants. And unfortunately that mass influx has slanted to arts and social science type programs (I'm a grad of these programs). These used to be fine because of transferable skills gained during studies but now what we have is an over-saturation of "educated" and "qualified" youth who feel they are underemployed.

The irony is that it's not some evil market structure keeping people from finding jobs - it's the prioritization of 'finding yourself' or 'pursuing what makes you happy' over planning out a career. People who skipped university in favor of trade or tech schools are not having trouble finding jobs, nor are those who enrolled in sought after degrees in STEM, etc. It shouldn't shock anyone that a mass influx of 'arts grads' with little more than the same shared transferable skills has caused parts of the job market to dry up. But there are others areas that are highly in demand, though few young people take them seriously anymore because they've been sold on the university experience.

I know. I went through it (graduating with a useless degree). Throw in student debt that is ridiculously out of proportion versus the value of the education (if you're in arts/social sciences) and you've got a recipe for a shitty ride into your 30s and 40s for many of them.

And I don't see this getting any better with new parents today because every one I speak with about education spouts off the same non-sense above. Ready to encourage their kids to go into debt for degrees with awful ROI for 'the experience' while crying that the government isn't doing enough to create middle class jobs.
Apparently trades are not glamorous but plumbers make a good bit of money these days

~Dee~
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:18 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by deec77 View Post
Apparently trades are not glamorous but plumbers make a good bit of money these days

~Dee~
Yes they do. Electricians too. Trades are a lost art
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