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Old 10-04-2011, 02:52 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Brady's Bunch View Post
Yes the answer is to get out and leave it alone, it will burn out eventually...you would pour gasoline and wonder why it never stops.

How many more years at war do we need to be to change your mind? Another 10 years? 20? If we don't change our ways, it will never end. Bombing peoples homes and killing civilians is no way to win the hearts and minds of the Arabian people. It's not hard to understand we are creating more terrorists and people who hate us by doing the things we do. People are willing to blow themselves up just to kill a few Americans! We are viewed as occupiers, we are viewed as being at war with Islam. You can't win that war...I'm not saying terrorism stops immediately if you leave but it would eventually...we've done a lot of harm and that's not easy to forget.
I'm not saying pour gasoline on the fire. I admit the current foreign policy has failed. But the solution is to pour water on the fire, not gasoline, and not "leave it alone it will stop eventually."

The solution, IMO, is this. As has always been the case with Jihad, success strengthens it and defeat saps it of it's strength. If it meets little resistance, it grows in enthusiasm as they think God is with them. If it meets stiff resistance and fails, even temporarily, they become disheartened and think they have offended God in some way and are discouraged. There is a long history of this. Byzantine writers noticed this. The defeat of the Soviets in Afghanistan was a huge boost to Jihad, and they started thinking they could accomplish anything with the tactics they'd used against the Soviets. The defeats at the hands of Israel were psychologically devastating around the Muslim world.
Therefore, we should punch them in the mouth. Don't get bogged down in some long occupation that gives them opportunities to score small victories and rebuild their enthusiasm while also presenting a clear target and scapegoat for all their problems. But make it clear that anyone who tries to mess with us is doomed to overwhelming failure.

The next step is to reduce the fertile conditions for extremism. Those who have no prospects for improving their lives will be more open to the extreme ideology and more open to blowing themselves up. Give them a taste of the benefits of our way of life. We've seen both in the Muslim world and in the USSR our culture is very appealing to young people who haven't had anything like it before.

Basically, the ones who are willing to try our way should be treated with great kindness, and the ones who attack us should be swiftly crushed. In this way you will discredit Islamic extremism as they will see that our way isn't so bad, and the Jihadis are losing anyway, so who wants to join them?
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:13 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by SteelerFan87 View Post
The failure of the current policy does not make Paul's policy the solution.

Oops, I just set fire to the couch. How do I stop it from burning the house down?
The answer is not "get out of the house and leave it alone."

I love Paul's policy in theory. And in most cases, it would probably be reasonable. But he seems entirely ignorant of Islamic history and the history of the ideology radical Muslims believe in, and he is naive to think that once the superpower genie has been let out of the bottle, that you can put it back in and the whole world will just be like "oh cool. We no longer have any problems with you." Empires (if you want to call us one) that retract do not live longer because of it. They collapse under the pressure of the multitudes of enemies that swarm into the vacuum and try to see how far they can push it.
The problem with empires is that they never admit when their economy cannot bear the burden of empire any longer...so the don't "retract", the "implode".

This is the crossroads we are at right now. We can contract in an orderly, planned manner, or push our economy to the point of collapse. It is our choice, right now.

I, personally, am not too concerned about an Islamic invasion on our shores....and if there is, preserving and protecting our economic health is the best way to defend ourselves.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:44 AM   #213
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steeler— jihad means struggle. We're not in the 8th century either. You need to unstick your attention from that period and move up to the present in order to evaluate this matter rationally, imo.

A lot of other history has intervened between then and today to shape attitudes and opinions with the Muslim world: intervention by western govts for control of resources, betrayals by France in England during and at the end of WWI, western govts re-drawing boundaries to divide tribes to weaken them in order to better control the area, blind support for zionism whereby America is not an honest broker in that conflict, intervention by the UN where Palestine and Israel were partitioned, leaving troops on Muslim Holy Lands since PGWI, putting puppets in power to do the bidding of the west ( I don't think Sadat was a puppet though).

Sorry, this war has not developed from the minds of 8th century Islamacists. That's a convenient excuse but it's still religious hatred and propaganda. Granted some of that goes on by both sides—all through history right down to Christian bias on not crediting the area with any science and math contributions.

However, Michael Scheuer former CIA head in counter-terrorism, chief of Bin Laden unit, and historian has repeatedly said they are too divided to impose a global religious system. Per Scheuer being victims of terrorism these days is due to blowback for years of what I listed in the first paragraph. They just couch it in religious rhetoric because, well, they're a religious people. Just as we couch it in "freedom." They just want us off their lands, as we would if anyone else did what our govt/CIA has been doing over there. We just don't hear about it all here. We get selected information.

I might add, just about every religion wants their way to be the way in a nation, with law reflecting their values. I have witnessed devout Catholics make this claim—most laws are based on someone's values it might as well be ours. I would say Judaism is less evangelical though.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:26 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradyLady12 View Post
steeler— jihad means struggle. We're not in the 8th century either. You need to unstick your attention from that period and move up to the present in order to evaluate this matter rationally, imo.

A lot of other history has intervened between then and today to shape attitudes and opinions with the Muslim world: intervention by western govts for control of resources, betrayals by France in England during and at the end of WWI, western govts re-drawing boundaries to divide tribes to weaken them in order to better control the area, blind support for zionism whereby America is not an honest broker in that conflict, intervention by the UN where Palestine and Israel were partitioned, leaving troops on Muslim Holy Lands since PGWI, putting puppets in power to do the bidding of the west ( I don't think Sadat was a puppet though).

Sorry, this war has not developed from the minds of 8th century Islamacists. That's a convenient excuse but it's still religious hatred and propaganda. Granted some of that goes on by both sides—all through history right down to Christian bias on not crediting the area with any science and math contributions.

However, Michael Scheuer former CIA head in counter-terrorism, chief of Bin Laden unit, and historian has repeatedly said they are too divided to impose a global religious system. Per Scheuer being victims of terrorism these days is due to blowback for years of what I listed in the first paragraph. They just couch it in religious rhetoric because, well, they're a religious people. Just as we couch it in "freedom." They just want us off their lands, as we would if anyone else did what our govt/CIA has been doing over there. We just don't hear about it all here. We get selected information.

I might add, just about every religion wants their way to be the way in a nation, with law reflecting their values. I have witnessed devout Catholics make this claim—most laws are based on someone's values it might as well be ours. I would say Judaism is less evangelical though.
Jihad means struggle, between the dar al Islam and the dar al harb. This may not be the popular definition of it today, and it may not be the definition most Muslims use. But it seems pretty clear that it is the definition fundamentalists use, and the definition our enemies use. What do you think is a better rallying cry? "England and France betrayed us after WW1!" or "Fight the infidel! They are immoral and unjustly occupy Allah's lands!" (Conveniently, Allah's lands can be any land, since Allah created it all)
What do you think is a better long term motivator? "France and England betrayed us 100 years ago!" or "We were once a great and powerful civilization, on the verge of spanning the whole world. The Western infidels have stolen this from us and left us poor and impotent. But we can get it all back!"

Yes, the great benefit of the West has always been Muslim disunity. You point out that they are neither united enough nor strong enough to threaten our existance as they threatened other superpowers in the past. Then you point out the ways the West has divided them and limited their power since WW1, and say we should stop doing that. Thus, since they are currently too divided and weak to be a major threat, we should remove the barriers to their unity and strength? Lets say we do everything they demand. We completely withdraw from the region. We withdraw all support for Israel. What do you think the first thing they will do is? Well, there will certainly be a power struggle at first, but whoever comes out on top, what do you think the first thing they will do is? Crush Israel. You say we should not trespass on Muslim holy lands. Well, once Israel is gone and Jerusalem is once again in Muslim hands, is that not a Muslim holy land? Where do you think their demands will stop? And what basis do you have to think it will ever stop?
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:41 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by SteelerFan87 View Post
Jihad means struggle, between the dar al Islam and the dar al harb.
I don't know what dar al Islam or al harb means.

Quote:
This may not be the popular definition of it today, and it may not be the definition most Muslims use. But it seems pretty clear that it is the definition fundamentalists use, and the definition our enemies use.
Yes it is the definition they use. Look it up. You're relying on Christian confirmation bias here. Before you say I am doing the same, just remember it's Christians and Muslims that have had a long and tortured relationship with each other, so one has to take their analysis with a grain of salt.

Quote:
What do you think is a better rallying cry?
It doesn't matter what I think is a better rallying cry, it still means struggle. It can mean against anyone harming their people which is what "infidel" can mean too.

However, I do think "struggle" is very apt.
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:54 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by SteelerFan87 View Post
Jihad means struggle, between the dar al Islam and the dar al harb. This may not be the popular definition of it today, and it may not be the definition most Muslims use. But it seems pretty clear that it is the definition fundamentalists use, and the definition our enemies use. What do you think is a better rallying cry? "England and France betrayed us after WW1!" or "Fight the infidel! They are immoral and unjustly occupy Allah's lands!" (Conveniently, Allah's lands can be any land, since Allah created it all)
What do you think is a better long term motivator? "France and England betrayed us 100 years ago!" or "We were once a great and powerful civilization, on the verge of spanning the whole world. The Western infidels have stolen this from us and left us poor and impotent. But we can get it all back!"

Yes, the great benefit of the West has always been Muslim disunity. You point out that they are neither united enough nor strong enough to threaten our existance as they threatened other superpowers in the past. Then you point out the ways the West has divided them and limited their power since WW1, and say we should stop doing that. Thus, since they are currently too divided and weak to be a major threat, we should remove the barriers to their unity and strength? Lets say we do everything they demand. We completely withdraw from the region. We withdraw all support for Israel. What do you think the first thing they will do is? Well, there will certainly be a power struggle at first, but whoever comes out on top, what do you think the first thing they will do is? Crush Israel. You say we should not trespass on Muslim holy lands. Well, once Israel is gone and Jerusalem is once again in Muslim hands, is that not a Muslim holy land? Where do you think their demands will stop? And what basis do you have to think it will ever stop?
Israel has nukes and more advanced weaponry than all the other middle eastern countries....they can defend themselves...if they get crushed, so what, why is it my problem? I couldn't care less about the fate of Israel. It's thier war, not ours.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:18 PM   #217
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RealClear Politics caught in the act of distorting Ron Paul's support

http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine...ught_in_t.html
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:02 PM   #218
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I don't know what dar al Islam or al harb means.
I'm not surprised. Moderate Muslims probably don't talk about it much.

Dar al Islam means the land of Islam. Dar al harb means the land of war. These are the 2 parts early Muslims divided the world into. Everything outside the land of Islam was part of the land of war. All the world was created by Allah and thus belongs to Allah, and by extension belongs to the servants of Allah. It is their job to recover it from the infidels who currently occupy it. This is why Islam initially spread mostly by conquest.

Furthermore, there was originally not supposed to be any permanent peace between the dar al Islam and the dar al harb. Of course, sometimes conditions make war impossible, or at least completely inadvisable, so truces were allowed.

I imagine as the tide turned and the West gained a clear technological, military, and economic advantage, and thus the conditions were virtually never favorable for war, Muslims had to find some way to reconcile the command of Jihad with the reality that they could not wage war against the West, and thus turned to alternate definitions of the "struggle" of Jihad. Nonetheless, what I said above was the original definition, and it makes perfect sense that fundamentalist, extremist terrorists would also use that original definition.


Quote:
Yes it is the definition they use. Look it up. You're relying on Christian confirmation bias here. Before you say I am doing the same, just remember it's Christians and Muslims that have had a long and tortured relationship with each other, so one has to take their analysis with a grain of salt.

It doesn't matter what I think is a better rallying cry, it still means struggle. It can mean against anyone harming their people which is what "infidel" can mean too.

However, I do think "struggle" is very apt.
Christians often say "What would Jesus do?" Well, I don't know if anyone has ever made "WWMD?" bracelets, but the answer to the question is probably "lead an army against the infidels." After all, that's one of the things he did. If Christians try to settle disputes on doctrine by looking back at what the earliest Christians did, and indeed, even in disputes on the Constitution we look back at what the Founding Fathers did and said, it seems logical that a similar method would be used in Muslim doctrinal disputes.

As for the rallying cry question, my point is what do you think is more likely to motivate people long term? An offense from 100 years ago, or the continued loss of status from a glorious past? Mussolini rallied the Italian people to his cause not by reminding them of Alaric the Visigoth, but of the glorious past of the Roman Empire. Hitler did use WW1 (which was also much more recent than anything else we're talking about), but he called his empire the Third Reich, drawing upon Germany's glorious imperial history of the Holy Roman Empire and the German Empire of Otto von Bismark and Kaiser Wilhelm (which were the 1st and 2nd Reichs) Greek nationalism manifested in the Megali Idea was concerned more with the restoration of Greek lands and a reestablishment of the Greek part of the Byzantine Empire, than with the events of May 29, 1453. Thus it makes more sense to me that Muslims would look back at their past as a major world power, moreso than betrayal by Britain and France 100 years ago.
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:39 PM   #219
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Ron Paul wins Values Voter summit straw poll

http://news.yahoo.com/ron-paul-wins-...193226764.html
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:05 AM   #220
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Ron Paul wins Values Voter summit straw poll

http://news.yahoo.com/ron-paul-wins-...193226764.html

Yeah, that's a huge win......sounds like something a Super market would put on.
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:45 AM   #221
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Yeah, that's a huge win......sounds like something a Super market would put on.
It's so huge, the media have fallen all over themselves to play it down and even misreport it with false headlines and charges that his campaign stuffed the ballot box. That's called damage control.
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Old 10-11-2011, 09:33 AM   #222
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Dude, when are you running?

Serious question.
Here you go, Jaric:

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LP Monday Message: Run for Congress in 2012

posted by Staff on Oct 10, 2011

October 10, 2011

Dear Friend of Liberty,
I assume you're fed up with the members of Congress.

I'm not just talking about how they are seriously harming our future, and the future of our children and grandchildren, with limitless government spending and debt.

I'm also talking about things like delegating warmaking powers to the president, sustaining the insane War on Drugs, and sitting idly by as the president violates every civil liberty he can think of.

If you're fed up, I hope you -- yes, YOU -- will step up and run for Congress as a Libertarian next year.

Our official goal is to have at least 200 Libertarians on the ballot for U.S. House next year. I'd love to see all 435 House seats contested by a principled Libertarian candidate!

Click here if you might be interested.

The filing deadlines depend on the state you live in. They're not here yet, but it's good to start getting ready now.

Sincerely,
Wes Benedict
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http://www.lp.org/blogs/staff/lp-mon...ngress-in-2012
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Old 10-12-2011, 07:43 AM   #223
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:16 AM   #224
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Paul got 5 minutes out of a two hour debate. Message control.

Also, found out Cain is supported by Koch Brothers money.
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"In government, the scum rises to the top."~ Hayek
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:20 PM   #225
BradyLady12
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Gonna have to laugh at this one! It's funny! On the media ignoring him.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Kb_YgzZnbhA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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"In government, the scum rises to the top."~ Hayek
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