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Old 09-12-2005, 05:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by P Manning Face
http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/buses.asp
OK, so the famous buses didn't roll because there were no drivers for them according to my earlier reference. Your link says:

Quote:
Whether this photograph truly represents a lost opportunity to have evacuated a substantial number of New Orleans residents ahead of Hurricane Katrina is difficult to assess. Such a claim presumes an availability of resources (e.g., experienced drivers, fuel) and workable logistics (e.g., sufficient means of notifying and getting residents to departure points, sufficiently clear roads for multiple trips out of town and back, adequate facilities within a reasonable driving distance capable of providing shelter, food, and water to a large number of people for an indeterminate period of time on short notice) that may or may not have been present.
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Old 09-12-2005, 05:19 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by P Manning Face
Maybe because it took a few days for the aftereffects of the storm to take effect.

The water didn't rise until day three.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesho...Uy=nyvoby&Ux=1
So they didn't bother listening to the National Hurricane Center, or the National Weather service the day BEFORE the hurricane even made landfall?

LINK



Quote:
4PM CDT – NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ISSUES SPECIAL HURRICANE WARNING: In the event of a category 4 or 5 hit, “Most of the area will be uninhabitable for weeks, perhaps longer. … At least one-half of well-constructed homes will have roof and wall failure. All gabled roofs will fail, leaving those homes severely damaged or destroyed. … Power outages will last for weeks. … Water shortages will make human suffering incredible by modern standards.”

Quote:
"BUSH, BROWN, CHERTOFF WARNED OF LEVEE FAILURE BY NATIONAL HURRICANE CENTER DIRECTOR: Dr. Max Mayfield, director of the National Hurricane Center: “‘We were briefing them way before landfall. … It’s not like this was a surprise. We had in the advisories that the levee could be topped.’”
Do you think they should ignore a levee breach in a city that is largely below sea level?

Quote:
- {on the day the Hurricane hit} - LATE MORNING – LEVEE BREACHED: “A large section of the vital 17th Street Canal levee, where it connects to the brand new ‘hurricane proof’ Old Hammond Highway bridge, gave way late Monday morning in Bucktown after Katrina’s fiercest winds were well north.”


LINK

Quote:
Forecasters feared Sunday afternoon that storm driven waters will lap over the New Orleans levees when monster Hurricane Katrina pushes past the Crescent City tomorrow.

By late afternoon Sunday, rain bands and gusty winds were flowing across coastal Louisiana near the mouth of the Mississippi River, almost due south of New Orleans and conditions were expected to continue to deteriorate as the powerful storm neared land.

“Coastal storm surge flooding of 18 to 22 feet above normal tide levels, locally as high as 28 feet, along with large and dangerous battering waves can be expected near and to the east of where the center makes landfall,” according to National Hurricane Center forecaster Richard Pasch.

Last edited by jim_vh; 09-12-2005 at 05:27 PM..
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Old 09-12-2005, 10:33 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by jim_vh
OK, so the famous buses didn't roll because there were no drivers for them according to my earlier reference.

The means of transportation were there. Why weren't there drivers? Think, dammit. Is it your position that the FEDs should have drivers available whereever they may be needed, or maybe, just maybe, the local government could have seen to that detail.
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Old 09-13-2005, 12:25 AM   #19
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It is my position that the school bus drivers probably left town because it was about to get hit by a hurricane, and if the drivers have left town then they are not available as resources to drive buses which is why the buses didn't roll.

I don't think using school buses was part of NO's disaster plan.

It is my position that after the hurricane struck the Federal gov't gave a slow response where in place assets weren't used as linked above.
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Old 09-16-2005, 09:06 AM   #20
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If the Superdome and Convention Center were evacuation places......why didn't the Mayor stock, water, food and police in there prior to the storm? Why? I don't get it. Food, water and cops.....is that too much to ask from that moron.......
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Old 09-16-2005, 09:48 AM   #21
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Did anyone happen to be watching ABC last night? Right after the President's speech, they went to a panel of about a dozen people in Houston that had all evacuated from New Orleans (not that it should really matter, but they were all black). It was kind of surprising in that not one of them had anything bad to say about the Bush, but several of them were PO'ed big time at the mayor and governor. One of them admitted that she had a chance to evacuate before the hurricane, but she didn't take the warnings seriously. The ABC moderator there tried to get some of them to say what criticisms they had about Bush, but there were no takers.
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Old 09-16-2005, 03:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by O_P_T
OK, simple question.

If one is to asses blame, is there any aspect of the NO disaster that is the fault of the mayor or Governor of Louisiana?

Yes or no.
OPT - I think the answer is that although there's plenty of blame to go around, I don't particularly expect the state of Louisiana to be an organization that has their shit too together. It's a poor southern state that nearly elected David Duke.

By contrast, I do expect FEMA, in an era of terrorist threat, to operate at a pretty high level, and not to be led by a political appointee whose main administrative experience involves managing an Arabian horse association.

Last edited by Mark_Henderson; 09-16-2005 at 03:50 PM..
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Old 09-16-2005, 03:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by dchester
Did anyone happen to be watching ABC last night? Right after the President's speech, they went to a panel of about a dozen people in Houston that had all evacuated from New Orleans (not that it should really matter, but they were all black). It was kind of surprising in that not one of them had anything bad to say about the Bush, but several of them were PO'ed big time at the mayor and governor. One of them admitted that she had a chance to evacuate before the hurricane, but she didn't take the warnings seriously. The ABC moderator there tried to get some of them to say what criticisms they had about Bush, but there were no takers.
I saw that DC. I usually tune to ABC (one of the supposedly liberal networks), because I think that they usually have some of the highest quality news coverage, especially Nightline. Do you think that Fox would have allowed a long segment with Bush bashing evacuees (without moderator spin) to ever make it to air?
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Old 09-16-2005, 04:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Henderson
I saw that DC. I usually tune to ABC (one of the supposedly liberal networks), because I think that they usually have some of the highest quality news coverage, especially Nightline. Do you think that Fox would have allowed a long segment with Bush bashing evacuees (without moderator spin) to ever make it to air?
To be honest, other than Fox News Sunday, I rarely watch much Fox news, (unless there's a breaking event, where I flip around to all the channels). I just don't like many of their hosts (other than Brit Hume), although if they have an interesting guest I'll watch. I do think ABC has a definate liberal slant (just like CBS & CNN), but I like NBC a little better. Actually, I don't mind that a station has a certain slant, but it annoys me sometimes when they try to deny it.

To get back to your question, I think Fox would play a segment that bashed Bush, as I've seen guests do that on their Sunday show (but maybe other shows wouldn't, as I don't watch Fox news all that often). What I found interesting about ABC last night, was that the panels comments didn't seem to be going how the moderator expected it.
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Old 09-16-2005, 05:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by dchester
To be honest, other than Fox News Sunday, I rarely watch much Fox news, (unless there's a breaking event, where I flip around to all the channels). I just don't like many of their hosts (other than Brit Hume), although if they have an interesting guest I'll watch. I do think ABC has a definate liberal slant (just like CBS & CNN), but I like NBC a little better. Actually, I don't mind that a station has a certain slant, but it annoys me sometimes when they try to deny it.

To get back to your question, I think Fox would play a segment that bashed Bush, as I've seen guests do that on their Sunday show (but maybe other shows wouldn't, as I don't watch Fox news all that often). What I found interesting about ABC last night, was that the panels comments didn't seem to be going how the moderator expected it.
I agree that the ABC segment was interesting for that reason. I don't watch much Fox "News" either, but from what I have seen, it seems that their liberal guests are often just fodder to be cut off and shot down by the right wing host, kind of like the guests on the old Morton Downey show, except that there isn't a crowd chanting at them.
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Old 09-17-2005, 11:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark_Henderson
OPT - I think the answer is that although there's plenty of blame to go around, I don't particularly expect the state of Louisiana to be an organization that has their shit too together. It's a poor southern state that nearly elected David Duke.

By contrast, I do expect FEMA, in an era of terrorist threat, to operate at a pretty high level, and not to be led by a political appointee whose main administrative experience involves managing an Arabian horse association.
Mark,

I agree that there is plenty of blame to go around, however if one looks at Thomas's original post, I interpreted his comments as saying "it's all Bush's fault, and OMG he's trying to blame the innocent locals for his mistake".

It was in this context that I asked if there was any blame that could be laid at the feet of the state and local officials.

As far as your expectation of FEMA's capabilities, Arnold Kling has an interesting take on the topic.

Quote:
The Intelligent Design theory on which I propose to debate DeLong might be stated as follows:

An Intelligent Designer can create policies, programs, and organizations through legislative fiat and top-down administration that operate effectively in a centralized manner. Government agencies and bureaucracies are like highly-tuned cars, needing only good navigators and drivers to race them to their goals.

DeLong seems to believe in such a theory of Intelligent Design. I am a skeptic. I believe in the theory of evolution.

Large organizations, in the private sector and the public sector alike, are inherently dehumanizing to employees, clumsy, inflexible, and unable to handle sudden new challenges. In addition, public sector organizations are hampered by political constraints and the stultification that comes from the absence of competition. In the private sector, the pressure of competition means that the surviving large organizations tend to be slightly less dysfunctional than those that go out of business.
Now this is not to say that an incompetent manager can't muck up an organization, but to suggest that the head of FEMA was the only problem is to assume that the rest of the government buracracy is that "highly tuned car".

I don't believe that for a second.

I expect government buracracies to be FUBAR.

That doesn't mean I don't expect them to try and improve their behavior, I just don't expect that they will be perfect.
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Old 09-22-2005, 02:06 PM   #27
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It looks like the local corruption that New Orleans is so famous for, was not wiped out by Katrina.

Storm Donations Found at City Official's Home

BATON ROUGE, La. - Police found cases of food, clothing and tools intended for hurricane victims at the home of the chief administrative officer for a New Orleans suburb, authorities said Wednesday.
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Officers searched Cedric Floyd's home because of complaints that city workers were helping themselves to donations for hurricane victims. Floyd, who runs the day-to-day operations in the suburb of Kenner, was in charge of distributing the goods.

Police plan to seek a charge of committing an illegal act as a public official against Floyd, and more charges against other city workers are possible, police Capt. Steve Caraway said.

The donations filled a large pickup truck four times. "It was an awful lot of stuff," Caraway said.

The donated materials must be processed as evidence but eventually will be distributed to victims. "We have lots of families that are begging for these supplies," said Attorney General Charles Foti, whose office assisted in the investigation.

Attempts to reach Floyd were unsuccessful at home numbers listed under his name in Kenner. His office number went unanswered after business hours.

Philip Ramon, chief of staff to Kenner Mayor Philip Capitano, has said city officials were investigating the alleged pilfering but added that many employees were themselves hurricane victims.
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