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Old Today, 12:37 PM   #2191
anderson
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Not worth your time responding to that particular post since it's just flat out wrong. Baron probably still thinks it's legal for Russian nationals (if that term rustles Lionel's jimmies, I think it's worth using it) to buy political ads in US media.
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Old Today, 12:48 PM   #2192
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OK, I finished reading the indictment....here are the Baron's summary thoughts;

The codes being applied are the following;

Title 18, ss 371
Title 18, ss1343
Title 18, ss 1344
Title 18, ss 1028A(c)
Title 18, ss 1028A(a), (1), (2)

Brief summation;

There is a lot about using social media...Facebook, Twitter, Instagram for political stuff, advertisements, posts, stuff like that. These social media accounts are fake groups and fake accounts, using a VPN server in the US.

Ok...I guess. So what? Pretty much every NGO in the world does that. techincally criminal, but good luck with that.

There is some stuff in there about stolen identifications, and using those stolen ID's to open bank accounts, Paypal accounts, and stuff like that to transfer money around.
This is legit. Easily prosecutable, totally a federal crime. (unless you are an illegal immigrant covered under DACA, of course).

There are a number of related charges regarding using fake and stolen ID's to send and receive money, which is wire fraud, basically...and bank fraud, of course. It all boils down to using stolen ID's, with stolen SSI numbers and bank account numbers. Stealing that information is a crime, using that information is another crime.

There is a lot of Anti-Hillary activist stuff, some pro-Trump stuff, and a some stuff about being pro or con other candidates, such as being pro-Bernie Sanders, which was presumably because of Hillary.

Interestingly, they organized and funded both the pro-Trump rallies and the Never Trump rallies after the election, as well as BLM and some others.

So...the indictment, as far as I can tell, mentions FECA in the beginning, but doesn't really list any statute the defendants are being charged with under it, only that they failed to register as foreign agents..but they are in Russia...so...whatever....and that two received visa's to come to the United States under false pretenses....they listed their reason as "personal", but were gathering information on the elections...basic information, nothing classified...newspaper and media stuff, apparently, and using that information to target their social media posts.

The indictment specifically says that there were no witting US citizens, only unwitting ones, so there are no "collusion" implications in this particular set of indictments.

Basically, this will come down to a case of using stolen identitites to commit wire fraud. I don'tt think the rest of it is realistically prosecutable. Making fake social media accounts isn't illegal. I mean....most Americans have fake social media accounts, right? Unless you're dumb enough to use your real name on everything online....I don't think there are a lot of Americans with real life names like "ILuvDingleberries" and stuff like that. It's a fake account...and psoting something like "Trump sucks." is...what....using fake accounts to commit election interference? What if it's a British guy? Do we extradite him to the United States and prosecute him?

The whole thing is ridiculous, except for the stolen ID's, bank fraud, and wire fraud.

That's my take on it.

These folks will be charged in absentia, convicted in absentia, and barred from entering the United States.

Hooray. Amazing investigative work.

I sure hope this isn't all he's got, because this is weak sauce, and actually proves no collusion if this is it...which was, I thought....the whole point of the "Trump-Russia Collusion" nonsense. So far, Mueller has proved it to be nonsense.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old Today, 12:51 PM   #2193
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Nice DACA dig, there.
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Old Today, 12:59 PM   #2194
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Let me get this straight. When looking around a Patriots fan site we have to run into pro Russian propaganda that's purpose is to get us to look the other way while they, the Russians, are attempting to subvert our Republic, and at the moment are succeeding beyond their wildest dreams?
There's a really, really, really easy way to stop the Russian election hacking.

Stop using social media.

That's it. Apparently.

I'm far more concerned with our own deep state agencies subverting our republic than I am Russians on Facebook and making Twitter posts. Are you kidding me?

In fact, I would prefer to let the Russians use their social media however they want, rather than promote censorship on social media or have the government regulate free speech on the internet....but I'm a pro-free speech guy...that makes me kind of un-American nowadays. Most Americans would rather have free speech censorship, for fear of the big, bad Russian social media posts.

Pro Free Speech is greater for the republic than pro fear and censorship. SO spare me the "your republic" nonsense....because your "republic" is government, no doubt...but mine is the Bill of Rights....which is...apparently...a Russian conspiracy, too.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old Today, 01:12 PM   #2195
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................
I'm far more concerned with our own deep state agencies subverting our republic..............
I see, so the real enemy is our government, not the Russian government.

Well there it is, right from the horses mouth.
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Old Today, 01:16 PM   #2196
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I see, so the real enemy is our government, not the Russian government.

Well there it is, right from the horses mouth.
You'll have to excuse Baron. He generally believes RT over American news outlets and also believes that Russia is just as much a free country and democracy as America is.

It's little wonder he's trying to diminish what the Internet Research Agency tried to accomplish (and did) to "making a few false social media accounts"
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Old Today, 01:27 PM   #2197
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I'm not really sure how many times I've said this now or how many more times I have to say it.

This is the BEGINNING, NOT THE END.

This ISN'T "it." This is just moving up the tree. If you listened or read Rosenstein's words very carefully, he said "AT THIS TIME" and in this indictment.

So the crime is we know that Mueller served Facebook with a criminal search warrant, requesting buyer and ad information on hundreds of accounts. A search warrant can only be issued if a federal judge finds probable cause that a crime may have been committed, and that evidence of that crime is likely to be found in the location searched.

In this instance, federal election law prohibits foreign governments and nationals from making any contributions to an election. If Mueller can trace any of the ads bought on Facebook back to individuals in Russia or the Russian government -- which he likely already has, since a judge signed off on the search warrant in the first place -- he can potentially bring criminal charges against them.

So where does "collusion" come in? We know that collusion isn't a legal term. But secretly agreeing to engage in an illegal act is a crime, and it's called conspiracy, or even a lesser act, aiding and abetting.

And here's the interesting part. These ads weren't meant for everyone to see. They specifically targeted demographics and certain geographic areas, let's say, for lack of a better word, "racist" areas. So even a very sophisticated intelligence service like Russia's would have difficulty figuring out this kind of limited, specific targetting on its own.

If any American companies or individuals did have this information and passed it to the Russians with the knowledge that it would be used to create fake Facebook ads, Mueller could charge them with conspiracy or aiding and abetting in violation of federal election law.

And we've seen some evidence of Russian hacking, as in the DNC server and to attacks on voting systems in give or take 20-40 states. If it's proven that Russia is responsible, which Mueller probably has evidence of and is now working on this aspect, these would constitute federal crimes, as in hacking or providing stolen goods. Anyone in the US could be charged with conspiracy, which, of course, is a path to "collusion."

But, yeah, nothing in the indictments. Until the next batch.

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Old Today, 01:49 PM   #2198
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In this instance, federal election law prohibits foreign governments and nationals from making any contributions to an election. If Mueller can trace any of the ads bought on Facebook back to individuals in Russia or the Russian government -- which he likely already has, since a judge signed off on the search warrant in the first place -- he can potentially bring criminal charges against them.

So where does "collusion" come in? We know that collusion isn't a legal term. But secretly agreeing to engage in an illegal act is a crime, and it's called conspiracy, or even a lesser act, aiding and abetting.


But, yeah, nothing in the indictments. Until the next batch.

Let me get this straight...you think the Russians are just going to come running to America to be prosecuted for buying Facebook ads?

ANd...if I understand the rest of your post correctly....now we are defining "Russian collusion" as one Russian plotting with another Russian...in Russia? Thank God...because for the last year I thought "Russian Collusion" meant Americans wittingly cooperating with Russians.

I'm glad we cleared that up.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old Today, 01:50 PM   #2199
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Let me get this straight...you think the Russians are just going to come running to America to be prosecuted for buying Facebook ads?

ANd...if I understand the rest of your post correctly....now we are defining "Russian collusion" as one Russian plotting with another Russian...in Russia? Thank God...because for the last year I thought "Russian Collusion" meant Americans wittingly cooperating with Russians.

I'm glad we cleared that up.
You should probably go back and read it a little slower. Your interpretation of what I thought I explained fairly simplistically is way off.

Oh, and...
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Old Today, 01:53 PM   #2200
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I see, so the real enemy is our government, not the Russian government.

Well there it is, right from the horses mouth.
Yes.

The greatest threat to freedom and liberty in America is the American government.

Russians aren't going to come knocking on your door, shoot your dog, and throw you in prison. They can't. Only your own government can do that.

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

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Gee, if I didn't know better, and maybe I don't, it appears that Baron takes joy in America's failures. In fact, it appears that he WANTS America to fail.
Maybe I just want the FBI to do it's fucking job.

EDIT: Full Disclosure.....I've had no use for the FBI since they let their own informant bomb the Boston Marathon....and then pretended they didn't know who it was.

Last edited by Baron Samedi; Today at 01:57 PM..
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old Today, 01:57 PM   #2201
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Maybe I just want the FBI to do it's fucking job.
35,000 employees.

There are mistakes in every single entity every single day because there is no such thing as perfection.

They ARE doing their jobs. Maybe you should volunteer to supervise them since you seem to think they're not performing well enough.

Unless you have forgotten that they thwart crimes, including what could be mass crimes, every single day.

Maybe Exxon should DO THEIR job so there's never another oil spill or oil explosion.
Maybe Amtrak should DO THEIR job so there's never another accident or missed signal.
Maybe maybe maybe.

Shit happens. Accidents happen. Mistakes happen. If you don't think they should, you're living in never never land. But, of course, I'm sure you've never made a mistake.

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Old Today, 02:08 PM   #2202
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35,000 employees.

There are mistakes in every single entity every single day because there is no such thing as perfection.
And I repeat....it is not a "mistake" or an "accident". No action whatsoever was taken by the FBI.

That's not an accident. That is negligence. Big difference.

If they had taken some action, some investigatoin, some notification...and the attack occured, anyway...that would be different. THAT would be "a mistake".
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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