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Old 08-09-2018, 01:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Hawg73 View Post
One fine morning I was riding my bicycle down a rural country road near where I live. I notice a car pulled over to the side of the road and a guy standing outside it smoking a butt and probably taking a leak, but something didn't quite look right.

As I get up alongside him I couldn't help but notice he was being orally serviced by a young lady on her knees.

Then again, it was spring and, like pollen, romance was in the air.

I suppose that given the theme of this thread they should both be commended for their commitment to safety.
Similar but far different story:

prior to the Wrentham outlets I was surveying the land and fell cutting my knee real bad. I limp back to the work truck and being winter I have long johns on so my co worker has me drop my pants so he can bandage up the cut so I can go get stitches.

well a woman walking her dog comes out of the woods to see my pants at my ankles and him kneeling in front of me and thought something that wasn't happening.

Yeah it was pretty funny seeing her look, look again and then scurry away.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:04 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by mikiemo83 View Post
That's common. Truck drivers always talk about the shit they see. road service is common and they think it is done in a way the truck driver can watch. sometimes it is a dude or chick all alone sharing the moment with the driver.
That was what I saw. Iím in my truck sitting up high and what got my attention was this guy in the next car over looking at me with this huge shit eating grin. Then I noticed why.
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Old 08-09-2018, 02:09 PM   #63
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Similar but far different story:




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Old 08-09-2018, 03:05 PM   #64
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Old 08-09-2018, 03:26 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikiemo83 View Post
Similar but far different story:

prior to the Wrentham outlets I was surveying the land and fell cutting my knee real bad. I limp back to the work truck and being winter I have long johns on so my co worker has me drop my pants so he can bandage up the cut so I can go get stitches.

well a woman walking her dog comes out of the woods to see my pants at my ankles and him kneeling in front of me and thought something that wasn't happening.

Yeah it was pretty funny seeing her look, look again and then scurry away.
She didn't come over to see if she could be of assistance? What is wrong with people in today's world?
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:38 PM   #66
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Old 08-28-2018, 03:35 PM   #67
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Terrible article.

Mary Jane has MANY benefits...
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:06 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by mooseontheloose View Post
Exactly.

But there are a few important caveats.

1. Once machines learn everything they need to learn, they won't repeat mistakes. Human error has all kinds of potential influencing factors (ie. being tired, distracted, physical mistake with the pedals/wheel, etc.) that just won't occur for AI.

2. Related to the above, there will be deaths by machine during the learning phase as we've already seen. But it's not like those deaths wouldn't exist anyway. Driving is the most dangerous activity North Americans participate in on a daily basis as it is. Obviously it's less 'palatable' to see people killed by AI/machines, but to suggest keeping machines off our roads is safer is kind of short-sighted. Long-term, if machine learning evolves as expected, every human taken off the road will be a big win.

Humans operating large machinery and even passenger vehicles is incredibly dangerous. Machines have already made things like manufacturing safer so it's hard to believe they won't do the same for driving.
I know this is old and I'm still working my way through this thread, so forgive me if this has already been addressed a dozen times since this post. However I wanted to point out that this is incorrect. I know it's a popular concept, that driving is the most dangerous thing that we do, but the reality is only 30-40k people die from traffic fatalities per year in the USA. Given that 85% of the US gets to work via cars, and even most children have a daily commute to school, that means there's well over 450 million commutes in the US per day.

No matter how you want to break it down, whether by mile driven, hour spent driving, commutes, or whatever, the chances of dying via a traffic fatality are very low. And yes, I'm aware that even at less than 1/100,000 chances of death from an activity, engage in it enough and it could still happen. However, based on leading causes of death, it's clear that it doesn't actually pan out that way in the US.

If you smoke, that's the most dangerous thing you do each day. If you drink alcohol, that's the most dangerous thing you do. If you consume refined sugar, that's the most dangerous thing you do, as those things are far more likely to actually result in your death. More people deliberately end their own lives each year than die in auto accidents. Heck, more people also die from accidental drug overdose, and when you combine those two (which in my opinion they should, since it's very difficult to determine if a drug overdose was "accidental" post mortem) far, far more people are responsible for the ending of their own lives than any sort of auto accident.

Who cares, what's the point, it's still 30,000 people who die each year whose deaths could be prevented, right? To a degree, yes. If AI cars took over entirely, that would be potentially up to between 1 and 1.5% fewer deaths per year in the USA if traffic fatalities were eliminated entirely. However where I take qualms and disagree is in the idea that every human taken off the road is a big win. I know that's where it's headed, AI cars become available, then incentivised, then mandatory, but I think it's a big loss. It's a loss of jobs, a loss of freedoms, and a loss of privacy.

Trucking employs 3.5 Million people in the USA. When including ancillary positions, over 8 million people are involved in that industry. Uber, cab drivers and similar services employ over 1 million more people. All of those jobs will eventually be displaced and eliminated by AI driving, which makes things marginally cheaper, but is a hit to the economy just as much as if not more than it's a boon.

As for me, I enjoy driving. I enjoy going wherever I want to go, being in control of my vehicle, and feeling the speed and power of the machine under my control. I'm not a reckless driver, have never hurt or killed anyone while driving, just like the majority of Americans, and am responsible while driving. Yet at some point, due to concerns of efficiency and safety, the ability to drive on public roads I know will be eliminated from myself and most other US citizens. At that point to get that same feeling would require renting out a track somewhere, and I will mourn that loss.

Finally, just keep in mind, the same tech that allows your car to see where it's going, allows any other interested parties to see where you're going as well. Maybe you don't fear a dystopian future where folks are imprisoned or killed for speaking out against a tyrannical government, but personally I'm of a similar mindset to the founding fathers in thinking that the moment you are Not fearful of such a thing and watchful for it, that's when you'll get such a government. If the only option to get anywhere is a system which the government can readily monitor, it certainly makes law enforcement much easier, but that's only a benefit if the laws are just.

Personally, I think every car should have a built in breathalyzer you need to pass in order to operate it, and a refresher course should be required for drivers training (with a new road test) every 5 years, 10 at the absolute maximum. This ensures the people on the roads are safe and legal to drive, and are knowledgeable about traffic laws and competent in their execution. Do that and even if thousands still die each year due to human drivers, I'm 100% ok with that and prefer it over trying to force humans off the road.
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Old 08-29-2018, 08:15 AM   #69
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Don't disagree with what you're saying, but it's simply a fact that motor vehicle deaths are the leading cause of death (and long-term disability) for most age groups and second most for the rest.

You're right that if you break it down to the probability of death based on your total number of trips, the chances are very small. But the point is that over the course of a month or year or lifetime, American adults are more likely to die (or be maimed) in a car accident than some other event/activity. Remember that driving is not like a disease or illness, including cancer. The act of smoking for example can't one day actually kill you. It can lead to illnesses that will kill you, but smoking itself won't. And some of those illnesses can/will develop even without smoking, drugs, alcohol, etc. Alcohol can kill but I suspect the number of people dying from alcohol poisoning is quite low.

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Old 08-29-2018, 08:32 AM   #70
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No I can't because my wife does not speak specifics about her clientelle, that would be highly unethical as well as illegal. But she does see the damage done on a daily basis. Weed is far from benign.

You won't hear official stories for several reasons, most importantly being that there is no accurate field test for it. But plenty of drivers have ben arrested for impairment from field sobriety tests. Also, you don't have people going to bars and smoking. Most people do their smoking at home, so you will have fewer drivers.

There's plenty of research that shows driving to be impaired when high. For me, the bottom line is that impairment is impairment. If you want to risk your own life, go ahead, but don't risk mine and my family's life.
Indeed there is plenty of research, but I'd encourage you to read up on it, it may be more complicated than you're aware of. For example:

"Surprisingly, given the alarming results of cognitive studies, most marijuana-intoxicated drivers show only modest impairments on actual road tests.37, 38 Experienced smokers who drive on a set course show almost no functional impairment under the influence of marijuana, except when it is combined with alcohol.39

Many investigators have suggested that the reason why marijuana does not result in an increased crash rate in laboratory tests despite demonstrable neurophysiologic impairments is that, unlike drivers under the influence of alcohol, who tend to underestimate their degree of impairment, marijuana users tend to overestimate their impairment, and consequently employ compensatory strategies"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722956/

"An interesting finding from this research is that after smoking marijuana, subjects in most of the simulator and instrumented vehicle studies on marijuana and driving typically drive slower, follow other cars at greater distances, and take fewer risks than when sober (Stein, et al., 1983; Smiley, et al., 1981; Smiley, et al., 1986; Casswell, 1977; Robbe and O'Hanlon, 1993). These effects appear to suggest that the drivers are attempting to compensate for the subjective effects of using marijuana. In contrast, subjects dosed with alcohol typically drive faster, follow at closer distances, and take greater risks"

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...o-congress.pdf

I could go on but the long and short of it is in simulators, between alcohol, use of a cell phone, and marijuana, marijuana use is by far the safest. Keep in mind I still don't think it's a good idea, and personally want to see a breathalyzer in every car anyway, and there ARE negatives, for example "Other studies have found poorer monitoring of the speedometer under the influence of marijuana,54 increased decision time when passing,52 increased time needed to brake when a light suddenly changes,55 and increased time to respond to a changing light45, 56 or sudden sound.57 Drivers also crashed more frequently into a sudden obstacle on a high dose of marijuana, although this did not happen at a low dose.45".

I just wanted to make it clear that the idea that "impairment is impairment" is not an accurate one. After all, there's a reason it's legal to drive with a BAC of .07 but not .16, and why driving while drunk is illegal but talking to someone while you drive is not, despite all of the above representing things that impair your driving ability to varying degrees.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:17 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseontheloose View Post
Don't disagree with what you're saying, but it's simply a fact that motor vehicle deaths are the leading cause of death (and long-term disability) for most age groups and second most for the rest.

You're right that if you break it down to the probability of death based on your total number of trips, the chances are very small. But the point is that over the course of a month or year or lifetime, American adults are more likely to die (or be maimed) in a car accident than some other event/activity. Remember that driving is not like a disease or illness, including cancer. The act of smoking for example can't one day actually kill you. It can lead to illnesses that will kill you, but smoking itself won't. And some of those illnesses can/will develop even without smoking, drugs, alcohol, etc. Alcohol can kill but I suspect the number of people dying from alcohol poisoning is quite low.

Yes it's certainly true that if someone said "someone died at 35 or younger, guess where they were" and I had money on it, I'd answer "in a vehicle of some kind". However when asked "someone died, what were they doing", if the choices are "driving or riding in a vehicle" or "some other activity", "some other activity wins every time. The chart you have, while good data, is a bit misleading by the way. It's not a breakdown of cause of death, it's a breakdown of the specific category "unintentional injury" as it pertains to cause of death. The full chart is linked below:

https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc..._1056w814h.gif

The reason I point that out even though unintentional injury is itself the leading cause of death for most age categories is because as an example, though unintentional injury is the leading cause of death for 25-34 and motor vehicle incident is the leading cause of unintentional injury death, there were more suicides than motor vehicle incidents for that age group.

Your point definitely still stands, I just like having more complete data

As to smoking not directly killing you, smoking increases heart rate and blood pressure levels wildly, and massively increases the risk of a cardiac event within 2 hours of it occurring, and especially in the first 20 minutes after doing so. The trouble is, when someone smokes, then has a heart attack, it still gets categorized as "heart disease". Though few people die of the event known as "alcohol poisoning", the effect of long term alcohol use on the body is catastrophic to nearly all organ functions. My point is merely that when looking at "how much your risk of death is increased over alternatives", taking a vehicle to work instead of walking isn't nearly as high up there as "drinking alcohol instead of abstaining". In terms of "what is most likely involved when you die" if under 55, absolutely, a motor vehicle tops the list.

Thankfully, if you live in the USA, under 55 your risk of death is very low anyway, which is awesome. And I'm not opposed to trying to make things safer. Again, a breathalyzer in every car, and mandatory drivers training every 5-10 years, we can cut those numbers in half. But given a choice between freedom and safety, I choose freedom, and side with Ben Franklin when he said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, shall have and deserve neither liberty nor safety." I'm all for reducing the number of people who Must drive, and eliminating impaired driving. I just don't want the dangers of driving so overblown that we feel we must sacrifice it entirely at the altar of safety.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:31 AM   #72
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Oh I also choose freedom and have no interest in exaggerating the dangers of driving. My original point was that driving is a pretty dangerous activity already and AI drivers aren't likely to make it any more dangerous in the long-term. Its acceptance will come down to whether we can accept 'machines killing innocent humans' as news headlines, even if the rate of occurrence is less than when human drivers are involved.
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:06 PM   #73
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Oh I also choose freedom and have no interest in exaggerating the dangers of driving. My original point was that driving is a pretty dangerous activity already and AI drivers aren't likely to make it any more dangerous in the long-term. Its acceptance will come down to whether we can accept 'machines killing innocent humans' as news headlines, even if the rate of occurrence is less than when human drivers are involved.
Have you ever had your computer crash from a virus? I have. A lot...and I bought a lot of spendy shit to combat it.

Now on top of that, you put full faith in something that could very well put you "on the other side" of eternity? I'm not afraid of death, but, I don't trust it...
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:13 PM   #74
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Old 08-29-2018, 01:16 PM   #75
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Have you ever had your computer crash from a virus? I have. A lot...and I bought a lot of spendy shit to combat it.

Now on top of that, you put full faith in something that could very well put you "on the other side" of eternity? I'm not afraid of death, but, I don't trust it...
Assembly lines are dominated by machines today. I don't have the figures, but I'm willing to bet there are FAR fewer deaths and serious injuries today than when those spots were manned by people.

I've been a PC guy for 20+ years and can count on one hand the number of serious viruses I've encountered. Moreover, the OS is how viruses attack generally and there needs to be an entry point (wireless or otherwise). Not saying software stability isn't a legitimate concern, but there are plenty of other machines doing tons of shit that humans used to do (including assembly lines, flying planes, etc.) and downtime due to 'crashes' is not a serious problem at all.

We all drive every day and see terrible drivers on the roads. Do you put faith in humans driving? Given that machines have generally done our jobs better than we could in areas where they replaced us, why should driving be different?
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