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Old 10-18-2006, 02:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by cka203 on 10-18-2006 at 02:56 PM
Let's spice this up a bit...

I'm not saying it's 100% applicable in all cases, but I do think there's a direct correlation between the removal of anything remotely religious from school, and the increase in violence in school, and kids behaviour in general.

I'm only 46, but when I was in school, it was no big deal to sing Christmas songs, etc. We even had Easter egg hunts, Halloween parties, etc. We didn't have to worry about being sued if we said the word God or prayer on school property.

And we also didn't have NEAR the drug problem we do today. We didn't have gangs. We didn't have to worry about school shootings.

I'm just saying...
Well, since we're spicing things - I couldn't disagree more. It's certaintly probable that the increase of violence in school/kid's behaviour is due to removal of anything religious from the HOME not the school.
Religion doesn't belong in a public school; kids should not be removed from class for non-denominational bible study, which is ridiculous anyway since not all religions study the bible. The point of PUBLIC school is education with a curriculum that includes all students; I would be pissed if my kid sat around for an hour with nothing to do during the school day because I didn't want him studying the bible - if you want your kids to study the bible on school time, there are private schools for that.
In this particular case I think it should try to be handled without calling the ACLU; things have certainly got out of hand with the lawsuits.
But back to the first point generally kids look first to their parents for guidelines on how to behave and treat others, when not to shoot up the school, etc. Religious studies in school that emphasize only one or two (i.e., not a general course studying the different religions in a non-judgmental manner) would only promote divisiveness, IMO.
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:27 PM   #17
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Originally posted by Alcoholic9 on 10-18-2006 at 03:11 PM
Umm.... religion has caused more violence and suffering than all wars combined and multiplied by like 1000.
Wrong! People misinterpreting religion have caused the violence.
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:30 PM   #18
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FWIW, I just checked the back of my One Dollar Bill. Among other things, it says: "In God We Trust".
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:33 PM   #19
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Grogsox has a good point. I would think a class on the different religions and their various POVs would be a good thing. Hate is usually caused by fear and misunderstanding, as well as the prejudices learned at home. Some non-biased (though there's the rub) education on why others don't believe as you do would be a good thing.
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:36 PM   #20
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Having grown up 28 years in Indiana, and being on the opposite end of the majority on this issue, I couldn't wait to get out of the lash of the Bible belt.

It amazes me that there are still people with the gall to pull crap like this. Here is the problem: this is on school time, so there's no such thing as "free" time. The teachers are still earning their tax dollars leading prayer sessions, and the kids who aren't attending these are sitting there getting no education for those dollars. So, even if you're not Christian, you're paying for other people to be.

I truly don't understand why school prayer is even an issue. I'm not religious, but if I was, I would want to be the one giving my son his daily lessons in morality, rather than some teacher.

Demanding prayer in school is simply another shirking of parental responsibilities, in my opinion.

(heh. Good ol' IDS. I spent three semesters workin' for that paper!)
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by dchester on 10-18-2006 at 03:30 PM
FWIW, I just checked the back of my One Dollar Bill. Among other things, it says: "In God We Trust".
But our country wasn't founded on it. We were almost at our first centennial before that got tacked on.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:43 PM   #22
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CKA - great way to spice it up! ;)

Many things have changed since I was a grade schooler (I'm 40) and people often point to our schools when they want to make a point over something they don't like (violent video games, violence on TV, Rock/Rap/Heavy Metal, helicopter parents, etc).

I'm not religious myself, didn't attend church except weddings and funerals, didn't go to CCD. I also didn't belong to a gang, didn't blow up my school, and didn't get in trouble with the police. (I did steal beers from the fridge when the parents weren't looking... but hey, who didn't do that!)

I lean towards believing that if kids are raised to respect teachers, police and "elders", and get punished when they act like spoiled brats, that might help more then "the fear of god".
I honestly don't know anyone who ever didn't do something because they thought they would go to hell. Maybe they figured they could just mention it during confession and get off the hook!

I'll have to check out that other religion-based thread mentioned above. I may have more "thoughts" to add!
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Old 10-18-2006, 02:59 PM   #23
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What happens when a rabbi, a mullah, a witch, an ACLU lawyer and a football coach show up at the school to talk to any kids who don't want to go to the Bible class? At what age should it be the kid's choice, rather than the parent's?

I'll go along with the 'too many lawsuits' and 'not on school property during school hours' viewpoints. Alas, unless you have some mechanism such as lawsuits, the majority will try to impose their own culture.
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by grogsox on 10-18-2006 at 03:27 PM
Wrong! People misinterpreting religion have caused the violence.
So pretty much everybody then. ;)
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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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Old 10-18-2006, 03:13 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve-o on 10-18-2006 at 03:39 PM
But our country wasn't founded on it. We were almost at our first centennial before that got tacked on.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml
You have to admit christianity is THE government sponsored religion though, which totally goes against the constitution. However, as long as there are millions of christians in this country, who will toss their vote to whatever politician mentions Jesus in his speeches, there's not much that can be done about it.
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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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Old 10-18-2006, 03:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by blantyr on 10-18-2006 at 03:59 PM
Alas, unless you have some mechanism such as lawsuits, the majority will try to impose their own culture.
That's it, right there. That's the key. It has nothing to do with spirituality. And everything to do with culture.

Just about every religion is based on some yahoo claiming to speak for god. And this yahoo who claims to speak for god invariably says in effect, 'God favors your culture above all others.'

Whether itís not working on Sunday, or making women cover their faces, or telling certain people that they canít get married, these are cultural issues that have nothing to do with a supreme being.



I say if anybody wants to teach the bible on school grounds they have to first prove it's the word of god.

And um, lots a luck trying to do that.
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patriots44 on 10-18-2006 at 03:43 PM
CKA - great way to spice it up! ;)

See what happens when I get bored?
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alcoholic9 on 10-18-2006 at 04:13 PM
You have to admit christianity is THE government sponsored religion though, which totally goes against the constitution. However, as long as there are millions of christians in this country, who will toss their vote to whatever politician mentions Jesus in his speeches, there's not much that can be done about it.
Well, hey, the farther along time goes, the farther away from the ideas of the real Patriots in this country.

You know, the guys in the funny hats who had a tea party and fought the British. They were pretty smart guys, and they didn't have a lot of schools, but they wouldn't want religion in them, if they did.

Questioning how they founded this country is unAmerican!

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Old 10-18-2006, 03:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peytonsux on 10-18-2006 at 03:21 PM
First came promoting the idea that the Constitution spells out a specific seperation of Church and State (you guys all seem pretty bright, so I'm assuming that you know that it doesn't- rather states that the government shall not establish or promote any religion).
And therein lies the crux (pardon the pun) of the problem: the U.S. is essentially a Christian country masquerading as a non-denominational one.

I find the whole thing pretty funny. We have "In God We Trust" on our money. If you go to court, you have to put your hand on a Bible and swear, "So help me God". The 'Pledge Of Alliegance' states "One nation under God". You have a crappy (IMO) president who likes to trot out God in his speeches (when it suits him, of course). Etcetera. And yet there's supposedly a separation between church and state.

I don't particularly care one way or another. I could care less if the U.S. was Christian, Jewish, atheist, or Buddhist. I just find it funny that so many of these clashes stem from the fact that the U.S. really IS a religious country.
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Old 10-18-2006, 03:55 PM   #30
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Religion is a cultural phenomenon. It is related to belief and spirituality, but in the end in an institution, like government, with many of the same plusses and minuses

Whenever I read a story like this I want to ask the "religious" folks the following question.

"If you were a Christian, living in say Iran, and the Mullah said that the Koran would be taught in public school regardless of how you felt about it would you think that was fair or not?" So that we might be free to follow our conscience and practice whichever faith our heart chooses it is not the place of government (of which the schools are a part) to place one religion (in this case Christianity) above another.

So if this school were offering Koran study and Torah study (and perhaps a comparative religion course for the unaffiliated) along side bible study I think I'd have less of a problem with it, but Christianity is a religion and claiming that the bible study is non-denominational is disingenuous.

To those who say that there is no Constitutional separation of Church and State (our lawyer friends can correct me if I'm wrong) the Courts are charged by the Constitution with interpreting the law, and the Courts, through precident have said there is.

Finally a few folks have critisized the mother for filing a lawsuit. If this were her first step I'd agree, but if she approached the school (and the school board) about this issue and was told to go suck an egg what choice did she have?
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