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Old 01-08-2008, 06:21 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaric on 01-08-2008 at 06:12 PM
Really?

You don't think the amount of the fine levied has anything to do with the seriousness of the offense?

Because that pretty much flies in the face of normal logic.

That fact that the Pats were able to afford the fine and punishment is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the fine and punishment are far and away higher than "normal" fines the league levies.

And while I don't doubt the manner in which BB conducted himself (The hubris as you call it) played some role in that, you don't drop the hammer down that hard simply because BB may come off rude at times, or because he was arrogant about the whole situation.

Basically that may explain some of it, but you don't lose half a million dollars for being rude.
You really don't understand that a multiplicity of factors go into a fine?

was balancing the seriousness of the offense, the public reaction, the need to establish himself as the authority in the first year in the job and many other things that I'm not thinking about.

There were plenty of factors at play here.

And even if it was all about the seriousness of the offense, the public reaction and comments like those made by your man Dungy likely shaped 's mindset, at least in part. I'm not saying that he's a jelly-fish but I am saying that everyone is subject to being influenced by external factors.

It wasn't rudeness that got him the fine. It was blowing off a league memo and brazenly violating the rule -- at least as to the hubris element. BB left little choice because he broke a rule after being reminded of that very rule in a memo.

This isn't complicated.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:34 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarrylStingley on 01-08-2008 at 06:21 PM
It wasn't rudeness that got him the fine. It was blowing off a league memo and brazenly violating the rule -- at least as to the hubris element. BB left little choice because he broke a rule after being reminded of that very rule in a memo.

This isn't complicated.
And you don't consider that serious?
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:38 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaric on 01-08-2008 at 07:34 PM
And you don't consider that serious?
No, I consider it mostly arrogant and brazen to ignore an NFL directive.

But the underlying conduct -- taping from the sideline when taping from the stands is legal -- is not something that I think was a big deal.

Thumbing your nose at the principal is not serious, it's arrogant.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:50 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarrylStingley on 01-08-2008 at 06:38 PM
But the underlying conduct -- taping from the sideline when taping from the stands is legal --
Taping defensive signals from the stands isn't legal either.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:52 PM   #215
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And this doesn't sound serious at all:

Quote:
"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," said in a letter to the Patriots.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:00 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmack on 01-08-2008 at 07:50 PM
Taping defensive signals from the stands isn't legal either.
I'm not sure that is right.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:01 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarrylStingley on 01-08-2008 at 07:00 PM
I'm not sure that is right.
I am.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:06 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmack on 01-08-2008 at 07:52 PM
And this doesn't sound serious at all:



So we're drawing conclusions from press releases?

Face it. Belichick did wrong. No one here debates that.

People debate if the rules violation was really a big deal.

You differ with me, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells and Howie Long and you agree with and Dungy and others.

Is that really a reason to post pictures of eyes rolling and otherwise pretend that your opinion is manifestly correct because, after all, you are expressing it?
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:09 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmack on 01-08-2008 at 08:01 PM
I am.
Well I feel better now.

Care to show that to be true?

And even if you are right, which I doubt, I still can't quite understand why it's such a big deal to video signals when you are allowed to watch them with a naked eye, use binoculars, use a telephoto lens and take copious notes.

It's not as if we are talking about stealing a playbook.
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:25 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarrylStingley on 01-08-2008 at 07:06 PM
So we're drawing conclusions from press releases?
Yes, DS, I'm drawing conclusions about this issue based upon the facts of the matter. The fact that BB was fined the maximum amount, that the team was also fined and has to forfeit a first round draft pick leads one to believe the matter was "serious." The fact that BB actually violated two rules, not just one, trumps the message board argument that has been repeated ad nauseum that the Patriots could have legally taped "from the stands" (which is absolutely false and violates both the same rules as being on the sideline).

When I'm debating, DS, I do like to deal with the facts of the matter, whereas you admittedly have a biased view of all things Tony Dungy. I realize that someone such as yourself, who has gulped down so much Homer-flavored Kool-Aid he's practically drowning, doesn't want to deal with facts, DS, but please don't be angry with the rest of us who do.

Now, the two rules in question (since you asked so nicely):

The "Game Operations Manual" states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game," and I'm presuming this is what the false notion of "taping from the stands" being legal was derived from. However, later in the same rule it is stated, "all video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." That certainly wouldn't include shooting the camera from the stands, would it DS?

Lastly, the rules clearly state that taping signals OF ANY KIND is prohibited. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. No special place. No room for "misinterpretation."

It sure is nice to know, though, that you base your arguments (which you defend so vehemently, mind you) on heresay found on the internet. And you wonder why I roll my eyes.

Last edited by tehmackdaddy; 01-08-2008 at 08:32 PM..
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:57 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmack on 01-08-2008 at 08:25 PM
Yes, DS, I'm drawing conclusions about this issue based upon the facts of the matter. The fact that BB was fined the maximum amount, that the team was also fined and has to forfeit a first round draft pick leads one to believe the matter was "serious." The fact that BB actually violated two rules, not just one, trumps the message board argument that has been repeated ad nauseum that the Patriots could have legally taped "from the stands" (which is absolutely false and violates both the same rules as being on the sideline).

When I'm debating, DS, I do like to deal with the facts of the matter, whereas you admittedly have a biased view of all things Tony Dungy. I realize that someone such as yourself, who has gulped down so much Homer-flavored Kool-Aid he's practically drowning, doesn't want to deal with facts, DS, but please don't be angry with the rest of us who do.

Now, the two rules in question (since you asked so nicely):

The "Game Operations Manual" states that "no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game," and I'm presuming this is what the false notion of "taping from the stands" being legal was derived from. However, later in the same rule it is stated, "all video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead." That certainly wouldn't include shooting the camera from the stands, would it DS?

Lastly, the rules clearly state that taping signals OF ANY KIND is prohibited. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. No special place. No room for "misinterpretation."

It sure is nice to know, though, that you base your arguments (which you defend so vehemently, mind you) on heresay found on the internet. And you wonder why I roll my eyes.
Your tone sucks. There really is no reason to write like a douche bag.

Your facts are not facts, they're opinions or just wrong.

1. There is no max fine. You invented that out of whole cloth. Maybe you meant the biggest fine given to date. If so, your mocking tone lacks precision.

2. You can believe what you want about whether a big fine equals serious. I think thought what BB did was serious. I disagree with Roger's conclusion and so do others who have experience in the game. But big penalties and jail sentences are given to innocent men all the time. In some places, huge penalties are given for smoking a joint. Do you really believe that the presence of a big penalty perforce means the crime or violation is serious. All you are really saying is that you think that whatever does must be right and measured and is an indication that BB's violation was serious. Bully for you.

3. Two rules/one rule....it doesn't demand the conclusion that taping is a big deal. Ten rules wouldn't demand that conclusion either. Taping is or isn't a big deal, regardless of how many rules were violated. It's true that lots of rules violations might be meaningful, but you are writing as if you can add up the violations and voila, you have a solid conclusion. What if kissing your wife and grabbing her ass over her skirt in public violated 17 laws? Would that make it a serious violation in the eyes of anyone besides that particular legislature?

4. It's not crystal clear from your connecting of the dots that coaches can't video from the stands. What if it was from a luxury box? Maybe that's the kind of stands that they can video tape from. Maybe there are other rules that bear on this. Pardon me if I don't buy that the great Tmack is the final authority on the NFL rules on taping.

And really, stop with the mocking tone. It does nothing to advance the discussion or convince anyone that you are correct.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:14 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarrylStingley on 01-08-2008 at 07:57 PM
Your tone sucks. There really is no reason to write like a douche bag.
That's too bad. Personally, I would consider arguing a subject you know nothing or very little about until you are blue in the face "writing like a douche bag," but that's probably just me too.

Quote:
Your facts are not facts, they're opinions or just wrong.
No, they're facts. Facts are objective, your opinion and your theories aren't.

Quote:
1. There is no max fine. You invented that out of whole cloth. Maybe you meant the biggest fine given to date. If so, your mocking tone lacks precision.


Are you sure about that? Read the first sentence of: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3018338. Again, you simply do not know what you are talking about.

Quote:
2. You can believe what you want about whether a big fine equals serious. I think thought what BB did was serious. I disagree with Roger's conclusion and so do others who have experience in the game. But big penalties and jail sentences are given to innocent men all the time. In some places, huge penalties are given for smoking a joint. Do you really believe that the presence of a big penalty perforce means the crime or violation is serious. All you are really saying is that you think that whatever does must be right and measured and is an indication that BB's violation was serious.


That isn't what I'm saying at all. It's what you want to think I'm saying so that you can rationalize your irrational argument. Surely I can't actually be on this keyboard regurgitating facts, citing articles, and using my brain to debate you DS, I must just be blindly following what thinks.

Quote:
3. Two rules/one rule....it doesn't demand the conclusion that taping is a big deal. Ten rules wouldn't demand that conclusion either. Taping is or isn't a big deal, regardless of how many rules were violated.


Again, that's one of those opinions that you're throwing out that doesn't mean diddly squat.

Quote:
4. It's not crystal clear from your connecting of the dots that coaches can't video from the stands. What if it was from a luxury box? Maybe that's the kind of stands that they can video tape from. Maybe there are other rules that bear on this. Pardon me if I don't buy that the great Tmack is the final authority on the NFL rules on taping.


The rules are very clear: you cannot videotape/record the opposing team's signals at any place or at any time. The other rule could be open to interpretation, but that one is not.

I am sorry that my tone sucks, but my patience for you is simply wearing thin. Have you ever argued with someone who knows virtually nothing about the subject at hand, yet they still get all riled up and act like a know-it-all? That's you, bro. Simmer down, or at the very least learn what the f*ck you're talking about.

Peace out.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:20 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by tmack on 01-08-2008 at 09:14 PM
That's too bad. Personally, I would consider arguing a subject you know nothing or very little about until you are blue in the face "writing like a douche bag," but that's probably just me too.



No, they're facts. Facts are objective, your opinion and your theories aren't.



Are you sure about that? Read the first sentence of: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3018338. Again, you simply do not know what you are talking about.

[/b]

That isn't what I'm saying at all. It's what you want to think I'm saying so that you can rationalize your irrational argument. Surely I can't actually be on this keyboard regurgitating facts, citing articles, and using my brain to debate you DS, I must just be blindly following what thinks.

[/b]

Again, that's one of those opinions that you're throwing out that doesn't mean diddly squat.

[/b]

The rules are very clear: you cannot videotape/record the opposing team's signals at any place or at any time. The other rule could be open to interpretation, but that one is not.

I am sorry that my tone sucks, but my patience for you is simply wearing thin. Have you ever argued with someone who knows virtually nothing about the subject at hand, yet they still get all riled up and act like a know-it-all? That's you, bro. Simmer down, or at the very least learn what the f*ck you're talking about.

Peace out. [/B]
Congrats on stomping your feet and saying that "I'm right and you are an idiot" when you have not actually proven any of your points. You have just repeated them with vigor. Cute.

If you think that a serious fine equals a serious violation, and that's factual rather than opinion, I think you may have been hit with a few grenades in basic training. Either that or your military based respect for authority has made you loopy.

No matter how many times you stamp your feet, BB did something that violates the rules and that's bad, but the fact that someone decided to give him him a big nasty fine doesn't mean he was right to do that and even if he was, that the big nasty fine means that it was a big nasty violation.

War out.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:21 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by jaric on 01-08-2008 at 03:11 PM
I'm sure the timing of the incident didn't help Bill's cause.

But do you really think the Commish would issue a historical fine for something he didn't believe was at least a semi-serious issue, simply to send a message?

I'm not out to tar and feather Bill. He paid his punishment and I'm content to move on, but I don't think the commish would react the way he did, simply to rule by fear unless he saw something on the tapes that bothered him.
Yes.

It's no coincidence that has handed out the largest suspensions, fines, etc., in NFL history within one year of his becoming commissioner. He's out to make a statement, and he crucified the Patriots and BB to further his agenda.

BB ignored 's memo, and so punished him for THAT, not so much the actual taping of signals.

Btw, if stated that there was nothing on those tapes that implicated the Patriots, why'd he fine them so much?
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:30 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally posted by PatsFan09* on 01-08-2008 at 09:21 PM
Btw, if stated that there was nothing on those tapes that implicated the Patriots, why'd he fine them so much?
Quote:
"This episode represents a calculated and deliberate attempt to avoid long-standing rules designed to encourage fair play and promote honest competition on the playing field," said in a letter to the Patriots.
I'm curious to how you drew the conclusion you did when came right out said you deliberately attempted to avoid long standing rules.
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