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Old 10-19-2006, 12:34 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alcoholic9 on 10-18-2006 at 08:58 PM
Why doesn't thousands of years ago apply?

Anyway how does Hitler not count? Watch some history channel and you will see he pretty much wanted to create a new religion with him as the Messiah. I believe he even refered to some of his closest people as apostles from time to time. This is whithout even bringing up his extermination campaign against the Jews. Stalin was also not a big fan of the Jews.

Regardless, the Crusades, Catholic/Protestant fighting, etc. was not thousands of years ago. Should we throw out everything except the last hundred years or so?

Go check out a lot of the African fighting/genocides that have occured lately. Much of it is religious.

Bosnia ring a bell?

I won't even bring up 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq.

I stand by my statement. Without religion a lot more people would be alive/had lived than the rest of our petty conflicts as humans have ever caused.

Who knows how far the Muslim extremist thing will go, it could potentially wipe out life on earth.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

How does Hitler not count? I don't get my history from the television. I received my history form Lowell Public Schools and Framingham State. Guess what? They don't speak of Hitler as a religion. You can rely on the history channel and PBS.

With regard to the rest of the above post, I said 92 MILLION! You said religion was responsible. I showed you 92 million over the last 100 years. DO you really think going back 500 or 1000 years is going to make your statement less wrong?

92 MILLION in the last 100 years. Period.


Oh and by the way, most of the leaders responsible for the 92 million murders would (Iím guessing) agree with your political viewpoints.... Stalin anyone?

Please...please DON'T IGNORE HISTORY!
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:36 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Umfold on 10-18-2006 at 09:27 PM
That's totally wrong. What are you even talking about?

Founded on religion? Nonsense.

Though some puritans did leave England because of the church, well, you'll notice that there were already people here.

(Also, though they were really after gold, many of the Europeans who came to America when it was first being explored only got funding if they agreed to 'force' the native people to accept Jesus as their god. No one knows how many native Americans died, but it is most likely 10s of millions)

But as far as the founding of America, it had nothing to do with religion.
Have you ever opened a history book?
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:36 AM   #63
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Re: Re: Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

Quote:
Originally posted by SteelerFan87 on 10-19-2006 at 01:32 AM
So, what, you're trying to say Jesus was a good, moral person? Wow, how stupid we are for following a guy like that, eh?
Questioning why people who claim to follow him vote contrary to everything he stood for.

Duh.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:39 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alcoholic9 on 10-18-2006 at 11:42 PM
It'd be much harder to convince someone to say "blow themselves up" if there wasn't a promise of say 72 virgins (which is wrong btw it's actually more ridiculous than that) waiting on the other side.

Ever seen Dogma? Silly movie but it did have a point. You can change an idea, a belief is something you're willing to die for.

Many people choose to blindly believe 2000 year old (or whatever) books (which according to someone should be thrown out because they're thousands of years old) full of stuff that just doesn't make any sense at all.

Sure, Noah got what? millions of animals on his ark? Tell me that's not a pathetic fairy tale. I imagine the Koran has similar stupid stories in it.

You ask us to watch comedians and admittedly dumb movies...do you think this HELPS you make a point?
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:40 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:36 AM
Have you ever opened a history book?
Wow, you got class. Instead of refuting what I said you try to insult me.

How Fox News of you.


I'm pretty sure the American revolution wasn't about religion. If it was, please enlighten me.

Oh wait! Now I remember. The Boston Tea Party was really about bibles. That's right. Gosh.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:44 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 01:33 AM
And the majority doesn't have its right to impose its will on the minority. We could go around and around on this.
Well, the whole concept of democracy is that you vote, and whoever gets the most votes wins. So, yes, the majority basically gets to decide how things are done. Now, the interests of minorities are protected, so that they won't be oppressed, but they have less of a right to tell the majority what to do than the majority has to decide what to do.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:44 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteelerFan87 on 10-19-2006 at 01:28 AM
And how many did He create?

Two, supposedly.

Silly argument, I can knock my girl up and we have a baby in 9 months, do I have the right to kill it?
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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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Old 10-19-2006, 12:45 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alcoholic9 on 10-19-2006 at 01:17 AM
Go back and read what I said and stop putting words in my mouth. I have nothing against Christianity. You however appear to have a problem with me not praising it's so called values and contributions.

Vote, don't vote, do what you want. But don't tell me to blindly pretend that Republicans and Democrats alike don't kiss the asses of Christianity to get votes. If everyone were all Muslims the politicians would praise Allah in their speeches and all the lemmings would vote for them.

Here's something you really won't like....

Christianity has more blood on it's hands than like 50 Hitlers, and it start's with the death of Jesus. Oh wait, it goes back further....

How many people did God himself kill in the Old testament?

But hey, for 24 bucks a month I can sponsor a child in South America.

Sigh........ok....here we go.



I didn't put words in your mouth.

I don't have a problem with you not praising anything. I have a problem with your ignorant (on this topic) rants against religion. Any religion.


Nobody told you to blindly do anything.


The rest of your post makes even less sense.............
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:48 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by SteelerFan87 on 10-19-2006 at 01:44 AM
Well, the whole concept of democracy is that you vote, and whoever gets the most votes wins. So, yes, the majority basically gets to decide how things are done. Now, the interests of minorities are protected, so that they won't be oppressed, but they have less of a right to tell the majority what to do than the majority has to decide what to do.
But we're not a democracy. We're a Republic.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:51 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:34 AM
How does Hitler not count? I don't get my history from the television. I received my history form Lowell Public Schools and Framingham State. Guess what? They don't speak of Hitler as a religion. You can rely on the history channel and PBS.

With regard to the rest of the above post, I said 92 MILLION! You said religion was responsible. I showed you 92 million over the last 100 years. DO you really think going back 500 or 1000 years is going to make your statement less wrong?

92 MILLION in the last 100 years. Period.


Oh and by the way, most of the leaders responsible for the 92 million murders would (Iím guessing) agree with your political viewpoints.... Stalin anyone?

Please...please DON'T IGNORE HISTORY!
You're a zealot now. Lowell and Framingham > History Channel ( who have 100's of PHD History scholar's and stuf behind them? )

credibility = gone

Most people on your list pprobably were in one way or another motivated by Religion. I rambled off three just glancing through your list who were.

You wan't to throw out history (aside from the last 100 years that you see entirely different from the facts) but stand behind a 2000 year old book.

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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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Old 10-19-2006, 12:51 AM   #71
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Re: Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

Quote:
Originally posted by Umfold on 10-19-2006 at 01:29 AM
Aloyouis, you keep saying 'the liberals'

Do you believe in Christ? How do you think JC would vote? Do you think he'd favor cutting programs that help the poor and needy in order to give tax breaks for the rich?
Do you think he'd support the NRA?
Wasn't Jesus, in fact, a lot closer to a socialist than a capitalist?

Christianity in America is the clearest case of people being used by religion for political ends.




Quote:
Do you believe in Christ?
What do you think?

Quote:
Do you think he'd favor cutting programs that help the poor and needy in order to give tax breaks for the rich?
Don't know. Totally different context than this but a common tactic. Old stuff.


Quote:
Do you think he'd support the NRA?
What does this have to do with anything we are discussing?


And your final statement is just plain ignorant but it would be polittically incorrect for me to point out the reasons why.

Last edited by aloyouis; 10-19-2006 at 12:59 AM..
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:53 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Umfold on 10-19-2006 at 01:40 AM
Wow, you got class. Instead of refuting what I said you try to insult me.

How Fox News of you.


I'm pretty sure the American revolution wasn't about religion. If it was, please enlighten me.

Oh wait! Now I remember. The Boston Tea Party was really about bibles. That's right. Gosh.

You made an ignorant statement. You insulted yourself.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:56 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alcoholic9 on 10-19-2006 at 01:51 AM
You're a zealot now. Lowell and Framingham > History Channel ( who have 100's of PHD History scholar's and stuf behind them? )

credibility = gone

Most people on your list pprobably were in one way or another motivated by Religion. I rambled off three just glancing through your list who were.

You wan't to throw out history (aside from the last 100 years that you see entirely different from the facts) but stand behind a 2000 year old book.


Reduced to name calling are you?


And yes. Learning in the classroom is better than watching TV. I am sorry you feel otherwise but...it is enlightening as to your position.
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:58 AM   #74
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I am going to stop here because work is going to come fast (5 hours). I appreciate the conversation.
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Old 10-19-2006, 01:06 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:58 AM
I am going to stop here because work is going to come fast (5 hours). I appreciate the conversation.
The zealot thing was probably out of line, I apologize.

I learned in the classroom too but I doubt either of us took four years of Hitler or Christianity or whatever. Actually I stand by History Channel as a great learning resource, better than most college courses for whatever the show is focusing on.

As the original poster said, let's see if we can have a civil debate about this ( or whatever it's become now.)
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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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