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Old 10-22-2006, 10:26 AM   #211
dchester
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Quote:
Originally posted by Umfold on 10-22-2006 at 10:59 AM
He was a liberal. He was not a war mongering neo-con. Sorry this reality makes your brain hurt. Try not to think about it, and just lie to yourself. I'm sure that's worked up till now. No need for you to change.
Out of curiosity, have you ever considered a career as a diplomat?


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Old 10-23-2006, 08:25 AM   #212
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What a great thread!

religion.....physics...

Although there is tremendous disagreement amongst us it is non the less a great thread as I have learned and been reminded of much that I had lost.

I have been inspired to go read things that I had lost interest in.

Thanks all!
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Old 10-23-2006, 10:47 AM   #213
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Check the Mormon thread in the Classics forum for another wide-ranging and civil discussion of religious differences (don't let the thread title or the first page or 2 throw you)
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:35 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-23-2006 at 09:25 AM
What a great thread!

religion.....physics...

Although there is tremendous disagreement amongst us it is non the less a great thread as I have learned and been reminded of much that I had lost.

I have been inspired to go read things that I had lost interest in.

Thanks all!
Arguing is a great way to learn. I never learn anything when I'm sitting around agreeing with people all the time.
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Old 11-15-2006, 01:37 PM   #215
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Hmm kinda jumping in towards the back of the thread so forgive me if the topics have switched in recent posts.

The reason that these issues on the seperation of church and state exist because religeon when used improperly can cause terrible things.

The problem exists because a finite being (humans) are incable of interpreting the actions or intents of an infinite being (god, in whatever form you wish)

Like a previous poster very eloquently put, the middle man is what screws it up.

If you study differant religeons, they generally have the same messages. The main differances are little details. But the overall message is the same. That's what I believe always gets lost when religeon comes up. That the proverbial forest goes missing while we argue the size of the trees.

Mark Twain once wrote, "Religeon can be summed up in two words: Be good."

It's been my experiance, that the people who speak the loudest regarding religeon usually do so for their own ends. Which makes sense. If God is powerful enough to create life, what good I am going to do arguing on their behalf? The only thing I create every morning could hardly be considered "life."

So why does America have a genuine intrest in keeping religeon out of state sponsership? Because there is no way to involve religeon in state sponsered activites without excluding someone from it, which by precedent violates the constitution.

Many have tried to include certain religeons by trying a "seperate but equal" type environment. And based on how well that worked for racial segregation I think we should abandon that idea ASAP.

I suppose my question for those claiming there is inherit benifit (exluding constitutional arguements and focusing only on the civic benifit) for having these sorts of programs be part of a public school ciriculum is why does something that we have decided on numerous occasions is between man (the "royal man") and god need to invade a place that is designed to teach reading, writing, and arithimatic?

Regardless of what the constitution says, I believe that religeon has no place in a public school simply because it is not the appropriate avenue for that to be taught. Thats what your church is for.

So until Father Mckenzie (yeah for beatles referances!) starts teaching math on sunday, let religeon stay in the church.
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Old 11-15-2006, 05:01 PM   #216
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Old 11-16-2006, 09:47 AM   #217
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On a personal level, I've never been a Christian, at least not in the way "Christians" mean it.

I celebrate Christmas, I recognize it is a "Christian" holiday albeit with pagan roots.

I would be highly offended if my child was given a Jesus Doll without any prior discussion with me. I am always pissed when my in-laws send my kids "Focus on the Family" propaganda and Junior Bibles in the guise of Christmas Presents (they are aware of my feelings on religion).

All that said, I'd be fine with Toys for Tots accepting this donation, as long as parents are asked if they were OK receiving this gift prior to recieving it. I suppose logistics might make that impossible but I'm not sure why.
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proceeding across a battlefield,
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I am up front to draw the fire.
I look back,
and one of those I was to protect has fallen."

Nicholas Wolterstorff, Lament for a Son (1987)
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:41 PM   #218
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I firmly believe that religion should remain a personal decision. And that all the proselytizing needs to stop! Believe what you wish and leave me alone! ;)
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Old 06-26-2007, 01:09 PM   #219
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Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


This is the text of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in which the term "Separation of church and state" is first heard. I think it provides an interesting context for the discussion
__________________
"An image haunts me:
proceeding across a battlefield,
my father now dead,
I am up front to draw the fire.
I look back,
and one of those I was to protect has fallen."

Nicholas Wolterstorff, Lament for a Son (1987)
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