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Old 01-04-2008, 03:07 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirtsleeve on 01-04-2008 at 03:01 PM
First I would officially like to give a standing
to you bf80 for starting this thread, and to all those that participated!!!!! THIS is why I first joined the mb's in the first place.
I just thought to ask the questions, and that was just because my own research for route names turned up nada on the web.

Thank the guys with the knowledge, really, they're the brains of this operation.



Quote:
To answer your question, Mike means middle linebacker in a 4/3 D. Sam means strong side linebacker and Will means weak side linebacker. Strong side means the TE side of the offensive formation. In a 3/4 the inside linebackers have several terms applied. One common one is Mike and Mo! (where's my pic of Light's shocked face?)
Thank you for answering this question, I actually was working on a post where I asked about it specifically but didn't even hit submit until after you'd posted. Wow!

So if a TE motions, does that change the Will and Sam (and their responsibilities), or do the LBs shift positions?

When Brady has talked about 'identifying the Mike', what does that mean exactly? Can't they tell who the middle LB is?

Quote:
And although the Pats use many different D looks in coverage, it is quite common, especially this season and last, to see them in a "cover 3 shell" before snap. The diagram has already been given so I wont give it again. But just because they show cover 3, it doesn't mean they dont shift from it from time to time. This is where I've seen Hobbs "getting torched" this season. And Pees was right. It was mostly a function of the defense called.
So in other words they are in a 3-shell with his 1/3 covered by him, with passes going to the middle 1/3 not getting covered and him going over to help out with the ball in the air...

Hobbs does seem to get a bad rap when it's not entirely deserved, especially when you find things like that out from Pees.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:08 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirtsleeve on 01-04-2008 at 03:06 PM
I just answered that!
haha. You were replying as I was re-asking. Crazy timing.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:11 PM   #123
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Another diagram with some different terminology on some of the routes.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:16 PM   #124
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Apparently the last route diagram was from a flag football site, so apologies if some of those are whacked out.

Lucky that we love football and are talking about diagrams, because look at this mess of a diagram for Basketball..

How in the heck do you install that in training camp?
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:23 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by Seuss on 01-04-2008 at 01:22 PM
Hey Dave -

I'm a native New Englander currently marooned in Cleveland. The other night when I hopped in my car for the commute home I caught the very tail end of a radio interview on the local sports station with someone who was obviously a former U of M player (I got the impression he might also be playing in the NFL). I missed who it was, but he was talking about Brady and said that he saw Brady (in a recent game, but I'm not sure if they were talking about the Giants game or not) grab his face mask at some point proir to the snap and he said that this was an old Michigan signal for some kind of switch/modification to the play. The guy joked that he was going to have to tell Tommy next time they spoke that there were other U of M guys out there and that everyone would be on to it the next time he tried that signal. Do you know what he was talking about?
Yeah, it's just a quick signal at the line between a QB and WR to acknowledge the read and adjust to a specified hot route. If you follow college ball at all, last year Brent Musberger got some heat for blowing USC's signal which was the "hang loose" that surfers use. A lot of teams will mix them up, but ours was typically the facemask (it isn't anymore to the extent of my knowledge.)

I wonder if it was Shea who was on the radio? He used to play for the Browns and has a lot of friends in the Cleveland media, and Aaron is one of Tommy's best friends. Shea also scored the maddest tail of anyone (up until Tommy got big.) It was a big thing to turn the peepholes around on your door and let your teammates vouch for you whenever you would bag a twofer. Shea was always scoring twofers, and even once managed a four banger, the single biggest score in Michigan football history.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:25 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michigan Dave on 01-04-2008 at 03:23 PM
Yeah, it's just a quick signal at the line between a QB and WR to acknowledge the read and adjust to a specified hot route. If you follow college ball at all, last year Brent Musberger got some heat for blowing USC's signal which was the "hang loose" that surfers use. A lot of teams will mix them up, but ours was typically the facemask (it isn't anymore to the extent of my knowledge.)

I wonder if it was Shea who was on the radio? He used to play for the Browns and has a lot of friends in the Cleveland media, and Aaron is one of Tommy's best friends. Shea also scored the maddest tail of anyone (up until Tommy got big.) It was a big thing to turn the peepholes around on your door and let your teammates vouch for you whenever you would bag a twofer. Shea was always scoring twofers, and even once managed a four banger, the single biggest score in Michigan football history.


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Old 01-04-2008, 03:25 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brownfan80 on 01-04-2008 at 03:07 PM

So if a TE motions, does that change the Will and Sam (and their responsibilities), or do the LBs shift positions?

Ummm....yes? It depends on the situation and the D called. Sometimes the LB's change their responsibilities, sometimes they shift. You've seen both before. It is situational and part of the "chess match" the coaches play.

So in other words they are in a 3-shell with his 1/3 covered by him, with passes going to the middle 1/3 not getting covered and him going over to help out with the ball in the air...

Ummm...yes? See above, but in a pure cover 3, the corners each have the deep outer 3rd of the field and the fs has the middle. The SS has force/flat responsibilities, along with a LB and or DL. You will see the corners playing "off" the WR's pre snap, usually lining up 7-10 yds off the LOS. Rarely do you see a D play a pure cover 3. And these pre snap and at snap adjustments, bringing a corner up at the snap, rolling the SS back to deep middle, rolling the FS over to the vacated zones, rolling LB's and DL's into coverage, blitzing a safety or a corner, etc. Are all part of the chess match.

Those are tough questions! There is a lot to that, I hope that helped.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:30 PM   #128
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This thread is "teh Awwsum!!!!11"

MD, regarding play calls and the receivers assignments being doled out in numerical code (like "860"), how does a QB's "progression" factor in? I guess I always generalized and figured that the progression was based on receiver talent/relationship with QB (Moss is first option, Welker second etc) but I guess it depends on what routes they're running as well as what the defense covers, right?

I don't know half of what I'm talking about but assuming two of the routes take longer than 5 seconds to develop (the 6 and 8), is the 0 the first option or is the 0 receiver expected to find space in a seam and be the checkdown option of the 8 and 6 are covered? Or does it depend more on the defense and "what they give"? I'm stating a "seam" assuming that means a soft spot in zone coverage.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:30 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brownfan80 on 01-04-2008 at 02:15 PM
Classic Cover Two, I think:

Sort of. The corner responsibilities usually wouldn't be drawn up to indicate man coverage like that, rather a short zone. The linebackers would be drawn out. Madden plays do a good job with base cover 2 for illustrating basic responsibility. In a good base cover 2, your MAC and SAM (in a 4-3) or either of your OLB in a 3-4 would be able to drop back and take away the inside, allowing your corner to jump an out and make plays.

Then you start to get into zone blitzes and increasing responsibility from athletic ends to cover and quick backers to have a broader coverage area.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:40 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michigan Dave on 01-04-2008 at 03:30 PM
Sort of. The corner responsibilities usually wouldn't be drawn up to indicate man coverage like that, rather a short zone. The linebackers would be drawn out. Madden plays do a good job with base cover 2 for illustrating basic responsibility. In a good base cover 2, your MAC and SAM (in a 4-3) or either of your OLB in a 3-4 would be able to drop back and take away the inside, allowing your corner to jump an out and make plays.

Then you start to get into zone blitzes and increasing responsibility from athletic ends to cover and quick backers to have a broader coverage area.
It's crazy how in depth football really is. Watching it on TV you'd almost never realize it unless you wanted to.

Many of the 'same play' people (regarding the Randy drop/23rd TD) probably only say that because both plays were 'deep passes' and to them that equates to the 'same play', even though clearly it wasn't.

It's awesome that you and AWTE have helped me (and others) out during this thread. Thank you for the time and effort.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:44 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brownfan80 on 01-04-2008 at 03:40 PM
It's crazy how in depth football really is. Watching it on TV you'd almost never realize it unless you wanted to.

Many of the 'same play' people (regarding the Randy drop/23rd TD) probably only say that because both plays were 'deep passes' and to them that equates to the 'same play', even though clearly it wasn't.

It's awesome that you and AWTE have helped me (and others) out during this thread. Thank you for the time and effort.
Amen!

And be grateful that we have been blessed with perhaps the best "chess player" AND motivator for a coach in BB! The guy never ceases to amaze.

And to the haters. BB has been very very vanilla this season, especially after the bye. Dont expect that in the playoffs.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:47 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fully* Tilted* on 01-04-2008 at 03:30 PM
This thread is "teh Awwsum!!!!11"

MD, regarding play calls and the receivers assignments being doled out in numerical code (like "860"), how does a QB's "progression" factor in? I guess I always generalized and figured that the progression was based on receiver talent/relationship with QB (Moss is first option, Welker second etc) but I guess it depends on what routes they're running as well as what the defense covers, right?

I don't know half of what I'm talking about but assuming two of the routes take longer than 5 seconds to develop (the 6 and 8), is the 0 the first option or is the 0 receiver expected to find space in a seam and be the checkdown option of the 8 and 6 are covered? Or does it depend more on the defense and "what they give"? I'm stating a "seam" assuming that means a soft spot in zone coverage.
No, the progression isn't in numerical order. The order is just XYZ in that play I gave you. The order in the playcall is strictly for the receivers' benefit because they can change position based on the formation. They know where they are in the formation they know what their route is on the call. The progression is usually determined in the QB meetings and in the playbook. You know your reads and WR progressions based on the formation, personnel and sometimes situation. As a QB, I'm making a couple of reads. First, I make my basic pre-snap read. If there's a check-with-me, I then designate that to my team. Then I'll make a line read, which my center is usually making too. He'll adjust protection or I'll point something out and adjust protection. The D will usually shift or try and disguise their coverages, stunts, blitzes and I'll re-read and then check down with my receivers on any hot routes. Usually there are certain situations that are always in play. For instance the 0 cut with David Givens if they give the illusion of a cushion in short yardage situations. That is something you have to "just know" and Brady and DG used for a TD in Pittsburgh at the AFCCG in 05. There's coverage specific checks and route options that are usually determined based on the coverage at the line. I look to my receiver, and with the look he's supposed to give me a little nod or something. There may be 3 or 4 options, but he has to "just know" what I'm thinking. That was a lot of Bethel Johnson's problem according to Tommy and what Devin Hester struggles with.

As for play development, it may take a couple of seconds for my 5 step drop, but I usually have a good idea before the snap where I'm going with the ball. At the snap a good QB adjusts and looks to option one then comes back and takes a snapshot of the other receivers and then makes his decision. That's 2 seconds MAX. If the play is broken, I'm scanning the field and feeling the pocket. I'm looking off the safety trying to help my receivers out (or the backers depending on who's helping on the coverage.)
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:54 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brownfan80 on 01-04-2008 at 03:40 PM
It's crazy how in depth football really is. Watching it on TV you'd almost never realize it unless you wanted to.

Many of the 'same play' people (regarding the Randy drop/23rd TD) probably only say that because both plays were 'deep passes' and to them that equates to the 'same play', even though clearly it wasn't.

It's awesome that you and AWTE have helped me (and others) out during this thread. Thank you for the time and effort.
Yup. And believe me, I'm a football MORON when compared to our QB. If you ever appreciated him for anything, appreciate the situational football that that guy knows. I swear, he had answers for everything, immediately, in our meetings. Even when he wasn't taking snaps in practice he'd be at my shoulder talking about what was open where, how to better read that play, when to run it, and had an impact on the coaches' play charts. College and NFL isn't like Madden where you have your entire playbook and have to figure everything out. Each week's gameplan is precise and specifically targets the trends and weaknesses of the opponent. On offense, there will be for instance a "3rd and 1-5" box with all the plays for that situation in there. The coaches choose from those. Trick plays and such are not on the sheet and called either in pre-planned situations or on a whim based on a trend. Tommy thinks through the game as it happens and knows what to do in a split second. He's the perfect QB for BB, because that's BB's niche, situational football.

It makes me laugh when people assume football players are dumb. They may not all be booksmart, but they are a different kind of smart. I roomed with a couple of rocket scientists (aerospace engineers) who couldn't pick up on the football playbook.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:58 PM   #134
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You know what amazes me the most about Tom Brady?

The fact that even if his team mates mess up, he can still find a way to succeed.

The game winner on Monday night in Denver in '03 (I think it was '03 and not '04) was to David Givens on a play where Brady was quoted as saying that DG ran the wrong route.

So not only did Tom read that Givens ran the wrong route in time to throw, he was quick enough mentally to be able to throw a perfect ball to the outside shoulder after having to re-read the coverage based on the wrong route.

You've gotta wonder how many other times Brady does things like that to pull other players butts out of the fire...

DG was celebrating on that play, but he actually screwed up. Brady was good enough to adjust and make it work, but still.
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Old 01-04-2008, 04:06 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michigan Dave on 01-04-2008 at 03:54 PM
It makes me laugh when people assume football players are dumb. They may not all be booksmart, but they are a different kind of smart. I roomed with a couple of rocket scientists (aerospace engineers) who couldn't pick up on the football playbook.
Agree 100%. I recall one of the ProJo sports writers (Reynolds or Donaldson, probably) wrote a peice a few years back to the effect that NFL players are the smartest of the major pro sport athletes b/c of how complex the NFL systems are, as compared to other pro sports. Basically something to the effect that you could be a moron and still make it big in baseball, etc., but not so in football.
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