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Old 06-14-2019, 07:10 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
I understand what your saying Tim, but see the earlier response to Mark Henderson in post 99.

The use of the term "life" grants a certain degree of ambiguity that in turn allows those in favor of abortion to avoid the fundamental question.

Using the term "person" eliminates any such ambiguity.

By definition, a "person" is a human being.

If one still supports abortion after another "person" is in existence, then one clearly thinks that there are certain classes of human beings that are not entitled to the same rights and privileges as others.

There's no wiggle room, there's no obfuscation possible. One is adopting the very same beliefs as those who were in favor of slavery.

Now to be clear, I am not saying that those who are in favor of abortion think they are killing "persons".

I accept at face value that they honestly believe for many abortions another "person" does not yet exist.

I'm OK with that.

I don't have an issue with either side that honestly believes that another "person" comes into existence at "X" and uses that as the basis for their argument and position.

Prior to "X" is is perfectly correct that it is a only a question for the woman and the doctor.

After "X" it is blatantly obvious that it is not. There is a third party involved, that cannot speak to defend itself, and so it is absolutely appropriate that there be some process to have others defend it's rights.

I don't think anyone, on any side of this debate, would disagree that this is what is appropriate prior to and after "X".

And so, the fundamental question is very simple. When is "X"?

I don't expect the two sides to agree as to when "X" happens. That's OK. IMHO, we don't have the knowledge today to determine that with any reasonable degree of certainty.

So it's perfectly fine for the two sides to disagree on when "X" happens.

What is unacceptable to me, is that the two sides insist their ideas about when "X" happens is absolute truth, that the other side agrees with this.

So you get the pro-abortion side ranting about "controlling women's bodies" and the anti-abortion side ranting about "baby killers".

When the reality is that the two sides don't agree on when "X" happens, and so have fundamentally different set of assumptions and definitions that form the basis for their perspective.

As such, communication is impossible and the two sides talk past each other.

So by using the term "person" as opposed to "Life", one reduces the probability that the concept of "X" is misconstrued by the two sides.
sounds like you are trying to define what is undefinable. I have to think that when it becomes a person is not something on can measure precisely but I agree if the two sides could agree on such a specific time frame a lot of the debate would be silenced.

BUT pro-life will continue to say at conception - speaking on a biblical Soul being in place. Pro-choice will have a different answer.

now if we could get those within each fraction to give a definitive answer to when a Person begins to exist we could then start to try to mitigate a solution no one will be completely happy with, but would be a compromise between the two sides.
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Old 06-14-2019, 02:10 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by mikiemo83 View Post
sounds like you are trying to define what is undefinable. I have to think that when it becomes a person is not something on can measure precisely but I agree if the two sides could agree on such a specific time frame a lot of the debate would be silenced.

BUT pro-life will continue to say at conception - speaking on a biblical Soul being in place. Pro-choice will have a different answer.

now if we could get those within each fraction to give a definitive answer to when a Person begins to exist we could then start to try to mitigate a solution no one will be completely happy with, but would be a compromise between the two sides.
I don’t have any idea how one would “prove” with any level of certainty when a “person”. Comes into existence.

But one doesn’t have to be able to do that to have a debate on the question be helpful.

I’m pretty sure that most people would think that a woman and her doctor should make the decision if there isn’t another “person” present.

Likewise, most people would accept that if there is another “person”, then it isn’t unreasonable to ask about the rights of the other person.

The two sides can agree on this while still disagreeing about when the other person first comes into existence.
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