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Old 12-03-2019, 09:29 AM   #1
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Massachusetts EBT cards were used in elite hotels in Hawaii: report

On 18 different occasions in 2019, a Massachusetts EBT card was swiped in Hawaii — including one that was used twice at a posh island resort where rooms fetch $800 a night, a report published Monday said.

The Boston Herald said it reviewed more than 2 million EBT expenditures over the past year and found thousands of out-of-state transactions that included withdrawals in Las Vegas and Alaska.

continued....

https://www.foxnews.com/us/massachus...-hawaii-report

I likely take a different view of this than almost anyone else, but here it is....

Giving people free stuff cannot and should not give you control or ownership of them.

If you give someone free money, that's your business. If you object to how they use that money, that's your problem.

If you want to keep giving them money, but you are angry that you don't have enough power and control over them....I hate to break it to you, that makes YOU the Socialist.

If you are unwilling to give people money with no strings, without having power and control over them, you are the classic socialist exercising the classic socialist values.

Think about that for a moment....it makes no difference if you are a Republican, if you want power and control over these people, then you're a no-good socialist, too, just like every other socialist on the planet, because socialism is about enslaving people to your will through dependency, using their own money to do it.

If you object to the story above, of people exercising their own choices and freedoms with their own money (yes, it is THEIR money, not yours, because you fucking gave it away, got that? You have no more right to tell them what to do with their money, then they have to tell YOU what to do with YOURS!

If you don't want to give them money, then don't. But if you do, you give it to them, and walk away, and what they do with it is none of your fucking business because you no longer have any claim to it. You didn't buy yourself a human slave, you theoretically just gave someone free stuff out of your own goodness, but if then try to control them with it, you're not good, you're evil, the worst kind of evil, the kind of evil that disguises itself as goodness and charity.

That's my take. Many won't like it, but I don't believe that the poor have to sell their freedom, liberty, human rights, and their souls in exchange for social welfare. They are still free Americans, able to choose what they choose and do what they like. You are the problem, not them.

Either give, or do not give, but mind your own fucking business if you choose to give.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:39 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
On 18 different occasions in 2019, a Massachusetts EBT card was swiped in Hawaii ó including one that was used twice at a posh island resort where rooms fetch $800 a night, a report published Monday said.

The Boston Herald said it reviewed more than 2 million EBT expenditures over the past year and found thousands of out-of-state transactions that included withdrawals in Las Vegas and Alaska.

continued....

https://www.foxnews.com/us/massachus...-hawaii-report

I likely take a different view of this than almost anyone else, but here it is....

Giving people free stuff cannot and should not give you control or ownership of them.

If you give someone free money, that's your business. If you object to how they use that money, that's your problem.

If you want to keep giving them money, but you are angry that you don't have enough power and control over them....I hate to break it to you, that makes YOU the Socialist.

If you are unwilling to give people money with no strings, without having power and control over them, you are the classic socialist exercising the classic socialist values.

Think about that for a moment....it makes no difference if you are a Republican, if you want power and control over these people, then you're a no-good socialist, too, just like every other socialist on the planet, because socialism is about enslaving people to your will through dependency, using their own money to do it.

If you object to the story above, of people exercising their own choices and freedoms with their own money (yes, it is THEIR money, not yours, because you fucking gave it away, got that? You have no more right to tell them what to do with their money, then they have to tell YOU what to do with YOURS!

If you don't want to give them money, then don't. But if you do, you give it to them, and walk away, and what they do with it is none of your fucking business because you no longer have any claim to it. You didn't buy yourself a human slave, you theoretically just gave someone free stuff out of your own goodness, but if then try to control them with it, you're not good, you're evil, the worst kind of evil, the kind of evil that disguises itself as goodness and charity.

That's my take. Many won't like it, but I don't believe that the poor have to sell their freedom, liberty, human rights, and their souls in exchange for social welfare. They are still free Americans, able to choose what they choose and do what they like. You are the problem, not them.

Either give, or do not give, but mind your own fucking business if you choose to give.
Agreed. I don't see an issue with the concretes here. Now the principles behind giving out EBT cards is another story altogether.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:13 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by johnlocke View Post
Agreed. I don't see an issue with the concretes here. Now the principles behind giving out EBT cards is another story altogether.
Exactly.

For example...giving money to charity, does not make one socialist. It's just giving money to a good cause.

BUT...if you expect control over the charity as the purpose for giving....that's socialism, not charity.

EDIT:

Giving someone else's money is both theft and socialism, in all cases.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:17 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Exactly.

For example...giving money to charity, does not make one socialist. It's just giving money to a good cause.

BUT...if you expect control over the charity as the purpose for giving....that's socialism, not charity.

EDIT:

Giving someone else's money is both theft and socialism, in all cases.
Perfect.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:17 AM   #5
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I believe in private charity (and yes it does begin at home). I can get behind having limits on where EBT cards are being used. I do not even believe in EBT cards. I needed food stamps for a short period when my kids were very young. It was so humiliating to me to use them, I was quick to find a better job. If someone is being given "money" to feed or house the kids and are trying to use them at luxury hotels, the liquor or weed store why is it socialist to be against that exactly? The people came to the state with a need and the state provided for that need, not for a party. The people did not just get money they got assistance with a pressing need. If I were to follow the assumption to its logical conclusion, if I were to provide a meal for someone and they used it to entice a woman into an alley to be raped and or murdered, I have no right to be upset the meal was used for that? I had no right to expect that meal would be used for nourishment only?
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:39 AM   #6
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The issue is the means of providing the support to the needy. Food stamps aren’t likely to be abused in the manner the EBT cards are. No issue here with helping the needy but reasonable controls on abuse are not unreasonable.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:41 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by patswin View Post
The issue is the means of providing the support to the needy. Food stamps arenít likely to be abused in the manner the EBT cards are. No issue here with helping the needy but reasonable controls on abuse are not unreasonable.
The issue is that Food Stamps and EBT are taken by force from the productive without their consent.

It's the principle here, not the the concretes of how it works.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:47 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by foobahl View Post
I believe in private charity (and yes it does begin at home). I can get behind having limits on where EBT cards are being used. I do not even believe in EBT cards. I needed food stamps for a short period when my kids were very young. It was so humiliating to me to use them, I was quick to find a better job. If someone is being given "money" to feed or house the kids and are trying to use them at luxury hotels, the liquor or weed store why is it socialist to be against that exactly? The people came to the state with a need and the state provided for that need, not for a party. The people did not just get money they got assistance with a pressing need. If I were to follow the assumption to its logical conclusion, if I were to provide a meal for someone and they used it to entice a woman into an alley to be raped and or murdered, I have no right to be upset the meal was used for that? I had no right to expect that meal would be used for nourishment only?
It's socialist because you're not giving, you're trying to buy them.

You are not responsible for what the person does with your gifts once given. Sure, you can approve or disapprove all you like. You can choose to give again, or not to give again, all you like. (In theory, we all know government does not allow nor tolerate choice int he matter.)

Your expectations are not relevant, except in regards to your own perception as to whether your gift was actually a purchase, where you have now bought another human being, or some portion thereof. That is a socialist value, because socialists fundamentally believe that people are property, essentially, of the government, who buys ownership of citizens through social welfare and other means.

If you give a homeless person money to buy some food, and they buy drugs with it, instead, of course you have a right to be disappointed. BUT....if you give a homeless person money every day for food, and they buy drugs with it....well, the problem is actually you, not the homeless person. YOU are free to choose to stop giving the money and go about your business.

But that's not what you do. What you do is insist on giving the money to the homeless person every day, but insist on power and control over that person in exchange. That's the essence of socialism. Giving is really purchasing, an attempt to strip the recipient of their liberty, their choice, their rights, their freedom, and their life, and replace it with your own whims and desires, compelling them to bend to your will, as you see fit. Your particular morality is imposed on them, and you consider yourself as being moral.

All socialists consider themselves moral, and all socialists consider stealing money from one citizen, and using it to buy another citizen's liberty to be replaced with their particular moral slavery, as a moral act.

Whatever your own motive, once you choose to strip them of freedoms, and liberties, and replace their rights with your own moral coercion, you are a socialist, and like all socialists, you consider yourself different and much more moral and well meaning then all the other socialists before you.

If it didn't work that way, there wouldn't be any socialists. They all think that personal liberty and freedom is a bad thing, because people make bad choices, and so depriving others of freedom and liberty and replacing it with your own form of moral coercion and power is a moral and good act.

That's why eventually killing the immoral and undesirable can be justified, because every step of the way to slavery and the grave is a moral act on behalf of the socialist, so their own will and desire becomes morality, itself.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:46 PM   #9
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The issue is that Food Stamps and EBT are taken by force from the productive without their consent.

It's the principle here, not the the concretes of how it works.
Exactly!
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:13 PM   #10
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Having thought about it a bit....and being pretty solidly unfamiliar with the process of getting EBT cards...

I presume there is some kind of contract involved with getting EBT cards. So...that would be a more or less voluntary consent to abide by a contract. However....violation of the contract makes it null, and therefore EBT funds are revoked. So that sort of goes to my original thesis.

Also, it remains that it's MY money being given away, against my will, under threat of severe consequences, not excluding murder, if I resist.

Aside from the government being notoriously uninterested in enforcing such contracts (each agency wants a bigger budget, a bigger budget demands bigger expenditures, more "customers" create bigger expenditures, so enforcing contracts and cost savings is against the government's self interest.), there is the issue of the neverending lists and interpretations of what is and is not acceptable to spend the EBT money on "you can spend it at Days Inn, but not at Holiday Inn", "You can spend it on Gatorade but not Hawaiian Punch, you can spend it on OJ but not Soda, and here is the list of what qualifies as soda", "you can spend it at the fish counter, and you can buy Tilapia, but you can't buy lobster...you can buy swordfish, but you can't buy haddock", etc, etc, etc, etc.....all these lists compiled, of course, by committee and much debate and reconsideration and reinterpretation....
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:14 PM   #11
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Having thought about it a bit....and being pretty solidly unfamiliar with the process of getting EBT cards...

I presume there is some kind of contract involved with getting EBT cards. So...that would be a more or less voluntary consent to abide by a contract. However....violation of the contract makes it null, and therefore EBT funds are revoked. So that sort of goes to my original thesis.

Also, it remains that it's MY money being given away, against my will, under threat of severe consequences, not excluding murder, if I resist.

Aside from the government being notoriously uninterested in enforcing such contracts (each agency wants a bigger budget, a bigger budget demands bigger expenditures, more "customers" create bigger expenditures, so enforcing contracts and cost savings is against the government's self interest.), there is the issue of the neverending lists and interpretations of what is and is not acceptable to spend the EBT money on "you can spend it at Days Inn, but not at Holiday Inn", "You can spend it on Gatorade but not Hawaiian Punch, you can spend it on OJ but not Soda, and here is the list of what qualifies as soda", "you can spend it at the fish counter, and you can buy Tilapia, but you can't buy lobster...you can buy swordfish, but you can't buy haddock", etc, etc, etc, etc.....all these lists compiled, of course, by committee and much debate and reconsideration and reinterpretation....
What I know of EBT cards is there are certain things that it's coded note to pay for such as hot food and non' food items. There is also a cash side that can use if you get it that can be used on just about anything except things like booze, tobacco, lottery etc at a store. The food part I have seen work flawlessly but the cash part, I've seen it used to buy beer and stuff.

I'm guessing they were withdrawing the cash from that side at an ATM at the hotel since you can't use either side in a restaurant, business or such unless it's a store or ATM.

Just posting for info.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:19 PM   #12
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Exactly.

For example...giving money to charity, does not make one socialist. It's just giving money to a good cause.

BUT...if you expect control over the charity as the purpose for giving....that's socialism, not charity.

EDIT:

Giving someone else's money is both theft and socialism, in all cases.
So if you contribute to a congressman's campaign chest so you have some control over his voting, is that socialist/or what is it? I mean if anyone would do such a thing.

Cheers
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:37 PM   #13
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:52 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post

Aside from the government being notoriously uninterested in enforcing such contracts ([I]each agency wants a bigger budget, a bigger budget demands bigger expenditures, more "customers" create bigger expenditures, so enforcing contracts and cost savings is against the government's self interest.
Along those lines, way back when I was an under grad at Umass, Lori was secretary to a department and she handled everything including requisitions. Today her title would have been Administrative Director or some such thing. School year ended early June leaving the staff free to submit requisition after requisition prior to June 30 (End of Ma fiscal year) until the budget was flat empty. And thus it was for every department everywhere across the state of MA,

Cheers, BostonTim
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:04 AM   #15
johnlocke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
It's socialist because you're not giving, you're trying to buy them.

You are not responsible for what the person does with your gifts once given. Sure, you can approve or disapprove all you like. You can choose to give again, or not to give again, all you like. (In theory, we all know government does not allow nor tolerate choice int he matter.)

Your expectations are not relevant, except in regards to your own perception as to whether your gift was actually a purchase, where you have now bought another human being, or some portion thereof. That is a socialist value, because socialists fundamentally believe that people are property, essentially, of the government, who buys ownership of citizens through social welfare and other means.

If you give a homeless person money to buy some food, and they buy drugs with it, instead, of course you have a right to be disappointed. BUT....if you give a homeless person money every day for food, and they buy drugs with it....well, the problem is actually you, not the homeless person. YOU are free to choose to stop giving the money and go about your business.

But that's not what you do. What you do is insist on giving the money to the homeless person every day, but insist on power and control over that person in exchange. That's the essence of socialism. Giving is really purchasing, an attempt to strip the recipient of their liberty, their choice, their rights, their freedom, and their life, and replace it with your own whims and desires, compelling them to bend to your will, as you see fit. Your particular morality is imposed on them, and you consider yourself as being moral.

All socialists consider themselves moral, and all socialists consider stealing money from one citizen, and using it to buy another citizen's liberty to be replaced with their particular moral slavery, as a moral act.

Whatever your own motive, once you choose to strip them of freedoms, and liberties, and replace their rights with your own moral coercion, you are a socialist, and like all socialists, you consider yourself different and much more moral and well meaning then all the other socialists before you.

If it didn't work that way, there wouldn't be any socialists. They all think that personal liberty and freedom is a bad thing, because people make bad choices, and so depriving others of freedom and liberty and replacing it with your own form of moral coercion and power is a moral and good act.

That's why eventually killing the immoral and undesirable can be justified, because every step of the way to slavery and the grave is a moral act on behalf of the socialist, so their own will and desire becomes morality, itself.
I think you are missing the definition of Socialism. But what do I know?
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