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Old 01-11-2018, 12:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by patswin View Post
He served several terms in the NY legislature as well as being governor, he was I believe secretary of the Navy as well. And he wasn't even elected president, he was vice president and got sworn in when Garfield was assassinated.

So, no, San Juan Hill had nothing to do with him being president.
It was McKinley and he was put on the ticket as VP a year and a half after San Juan Hill because of his celebrity from that. I acknowledged that it wasn't a close comparison, but that celebrity was an issue.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
TR is one of my favorite political figures. He's also incredibly complicated. You read some of his qoutes and might think "well that's kinda racist" until you juxtapose them with qoutes from contemporaries and realize he's comparatively woke af.

The war mongering is a concern, but that also took place largely before the world wars, where war was...still hell but a more gentlemanly version of hell. I wonder if he'd have the same stance had he loved through both world wars and saw the devastating meat grinder modern warfare is capable of becoming.
I don't know if I'd characterize him as a "Warmonger" as President.

His "speak softly and carry a big stick" was one to prevent war by making the other side hesitate to attack because of the military power you posess.

He also won a Nobel Peace Prize for negotiating an end to the Russo-Japanese war, in Portsmouth NH BTW.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by patswin View Post
He served several terms in the NY legislature as well as being governor, he was I believe secretary of the Navy as well. And he wasn't even elected president, he was vice president and got sworn in when Garfield was assassinated.

So, no, San Juan Hill had nothing to do with him being president.
Asst secretary of the Navy.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Wait...

The Federal Government can own LAND?!?!
I don't have a problem with the government protecting monuments and wildlife preserves, certain natural wonders...Yellowstone for example...or for land necessary for national defense, like military bases.

I do have a problem with owning vast swaths of land that, for example, they deny ranchers the ability to graze on, in the name of protecting the land, and then sell mineral rights to Chinese mining companies on the same spot.

I don't have a problem with federally owned land for things like the Appalachian Trail, public recreation, that occupies a large amount of property, but I do have a problem when the Feds own nearly the entire state, such as in Utah or Nevada, for no particular purpose, and don't allow the state themselves to manage the land as they see fit.

Make sense?
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
I don't have a problem with the government protecting monuments and wildlife preserves, certain natural wonders...Yellowstone for example...or for land necessary for national defense, like military bases.

I do have a problem with owning vast swaths of land that, for example, they deny ranchers the ability to graze on, in the name of protecting the land, and then sell mineral rights to Chinese mining companies on the same spot.

I don't have a problem with federally owned land for things like the Appalachian Trail, public recreation, that occupies a large amount of property, but I do have a problem when the Feds own nearly the entire state, such as in Utah or Nevada, for no particular purpose, and don't allow the state themselves to manage the land as they see fit.

Make sense?
It makes sense from a practical standpoint, but from a legal and Constitutional standpoint, no.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
It makes sense from a practical standpoint, but from a legal and Constitutional standpoint, no.
I don't understand the Constitutional standpoint you refer to.
Rather than make a long post, I'll cut and paste a summary of what the Constitution says about Federal property ownership..

* Under the Property Clause (Art. IV, Sec. 3, Cl. 2), land titled to the federal government and held outside state boundaries is “Territory.” Federal land held within state boundaries is “other Property.”

* If the host state agrees, the federal government can acquire an “enclave” within the state under the Enclave Clause (I-8-17). This grants governmental jurisdiction to the federal government, but the federal government has to acquire title separately. Washington, D.C. (the most important enclave), for example, is under federal jurisdiction, but much of the land is held by other parties, including individuals.

* The Property Clause gives Congress unconditional power to dispose of property and authority to regulate what is already held. It does not mention a power to acquire.

* Under the Treaty Clause (II-2-2; see also Article VI), the federal government may acquire land outside state boundaries. As long as the area is governed as a territory, the federal government may retain any land it deems best.

* As for acreage (”other Property”) within state boundaries: Under the Necessary and Proper Clause, the federal government may acquire and retain land necessary for carrying out its enumerated powers. This includes parcels for military bases, post offices, buildings to house federal employees undertaking enumerated functions, and the like. It is not necessary to form federal enclaves for these purposes.

* But within state boundaries the Constitution grants no authority to retain acreage for unenumerated purposes, such as land for grazing, mineral development, agriculture, forests, or parks.

* Once a state is created and is thereby no longer a territory, the federal government has a duty to dispose of tracts not used for enumerated purposes.

* In the process of disposal, the federal government must follow the rules of public trust. It would be a breach of fiduciary duty for the feds to simply grant all of its surplus property to state governments. Each tract must be disposed of in accordance with the best interest of the American people. For example, natural wonders and environmentally sensitive areas (such as those now encompassed by the national parks) might be conveyed under strict conditions to state park authorities or (as in Britain) to perpetual environmental trusts. Land useful only for grazing, mining, or agriculture should be sold or homesteaded, with or without restrictions. The restrictions might include environmental protections, public easements, and protection for hunters and anglers.


http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/2016...and-ownership/
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:29 PM   #52
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Asst secretary of the Navy.
Noted :thumbs up:
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:44 PM   #53
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(((foreskins))) !?!?!
Foreskin and 7 years ago...
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:46 PM   #54
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My personal take on the Oprah thing, I think Oprah is a very intelligent, reasonable, and successful woman. I respect her a great deal, though I am definitely not a fan, I just respect her for what she built and accomplished.

I am sure she is a left winger...but as a libertarian, that does not rule her out by definition....I'd actually be interested in hearing her ideas, if she actually has any, meaning actual policies and plans, not just platitudes and propaganda.

Oprah would have a far, far greater chance of getting my vote than, say, Michelle Obama or Liz Warren, who I think are your democrat front runners right now, right? I can't stand either of those two. Your only hope of my vote would be Oprah amongst those three.

Having said that, it would take almost an act of God to make me vote Trump out, because I've never had so much fun with politics in my entire life, and never will again. I want my money's worth on this ride.

If Oprah promised to end the interventionist foreign policy, and to end foreign aid, that might do it. Short of that...can't really think of anything.

Unfortunately, being anti-1st amendment, anti-2nd amendment and anti-4th amendment is a deal breaker for me, and that rules out 99% of democrats, and Oprah, too, I presume.
Mike doesn't have a chance...
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:28 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
I don't understand the Constitutional standpoint you refer to.
Rather than make a long post, I'll cut and paste a summary of what the Constitution says about Federal property ownership..

~snip~
No, you're posting one person's opinion on what the Constitution says. it does a poor job, IMHO, of making a compelling argument since it provides no detailed explanation for the things it claims.

Granted, I don't understand what part of the Constitution Darth is refering to in his post, but he is expressing his opinion as to what the Constitution says on this topic.

So I rule a draw, at this point.

Darth, could you explain what are the legal and Constitutional issues you refered to?
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Old 01-11-2018, 11:18 PM   #56
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Noted :thumbs up:
The History on fire podcast has a great 3 part series on his life. Strongly recommend.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:02 PM   #57
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No, you're posting one person's opinion on what the Constitution says. it does a poor job, IMHO, of making a compelling argument since it provides no detailed explanation for the things it claims.

Granted, I don't understand what part of the Constitution Darth is refering to in his post, but he is expressing his opinion as to what the Constitution says on this topic.

So I rule a draw, at this point.

Darth, could you explain what are the legal and Constitutional issues you refered to?
Federal land ownership began when the original 13 states ceded their "western” lands (between the Appalachian Mountains and the Mississippi River) to the centralgovernment between 1781 and 1802. Substantial land acquisition in North America via treaties and purchases began with the Louisiana Purchase in 1803 and culminated with the purchase of Alaska in 1867. In total, the federal government acquired 1.8 billion acres in North America.

The U.S. Constitution addresses the relationship of the federal government to
lands. Article IV, § 3, Clause 2 — the Property Clause — gives Congress authority over federal property generally, and the Supreme Court has described Congress’s power to legislate under this Clause as “without limitation.” The equal footing doctrine (based on language within Article
IV, § 3, Clause 1), and found in state enabling acts, provides new states with equality to the original states in terms of constitutional rights, but has not been used successfully to force the divestment of federal lands. The policy question of whether to acquire more, or to dispose of any or all, federal lands is left to Congress to decide.

The initial federal policy generally was to transfer ownership of many federal
lands to private and state ownership. Congress enacted many laws granting lands and authorizing or directing sales or transfers, ultimately disposing of 1.275 billion acres.

However, from the earliest times, Congress also provided for reserving lands for federal purposes, and over time has reserved or withdrawn areas for such entities as national parks, national forests, and wildlife refuges.

The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 was enacted to remedy the deterioration of the range on the remaining public lands. This was the first direct authority for federal management of these lands, and implicitly began the shift toward ending disposals and retaining lands in federal ownership. In 1976, Congress formally declared that national policy was generally to retain the remaining lands in federal ownership in the Federal Land Policy Land Management Act.

The “Sagebrush Rebellion” was a collection of unsuccessful state and local efforts, beginning in 1978, to assert title to federal lands or force their divestiture.

It also included efforts by the Reagan Administration and in Congress to divest of many federal lands, which also proved unsuccessful.

Legislation on federal land disposal continues to be considered. Bills for the
wholesale disposal have not been introduced in more than a decade, but legislation has been introduced to limit federal land ownership or acquisition, to expand disposal authorities (at least in some areas), to sell lands to pay for other activities, and to accelerate currently authorized land sales. Because the extent of federal lands and the authority to acquire and dispose of federal lands are an enduring policy question, Congress faces continued consideration of federal lands legislation.


https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL34267.pdf

I think this is more or less consistent with my view and what I posted, and acknowledges at the end that precisely what power the government has in owning and managing land is not clear and an ongoing issue.

This derives from the government assuming powers not enumerated in the Constitution, so naturally there would be ambiguity and an ongoing issue.

Any powers asserted but not enumerated in the Constitution are, by definition, opinion, but not Constitutional.
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