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Old 01-02-2018, 12:51 PM   #31
Jaric
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Well of course Baron would consider opposing Russia immoral.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:21 PM   #32
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Better example.

Stopping Stalin taking over all of Europe after WWII, via NATO, the Marshall Plan, etc. is "immoral".

The fact that this would vastly increase the resources and capability of Stalin to threaten the US apparently does not constitute a "threat" to the Baron.

It would appear that the only "threat" that warrants any response is a direct military attack on the USA.

I for one recognize that "self defense" includes preventing things from getting to that point
And thusly you justify all of Stalin and Hitler's actions.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:23 PM   #33
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And thusly you justify all of Stalin and Hitler's actions.
Wut?
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:34 PM   #34
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Wut?
No country has been invaded more times than Russia. This is their justification for the Warsaw Pact, for example.

Germany justified it's expansion by "reuniting the German peoples" and liberating them from foreign aggression, blah, blah, blah.

Empire is always morally justified.

Incidentally, if Russia were a part of Europe today, it would be ranked #6 in GDP. They're not nearly as big a threat as the west makes them out to be, it is just convenient for Europe because the United States pays the bill of national defense for them. There are literally 5 countries in Europe with a higher GDP than Russia, and could afford to spend money on the military required to wipe Russia from the map if they wanted to.

BUT...why bother if you can get the US to pay the bills? You don't. That way, Europe gets what it wants...a free military, and the US government gets what it wants...to be the world's policeman and superpower, no matter what it costs.

From the perspective of the US government and NATO, the collapse of the Soviet Union was a disaster.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:35 PM   #35
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Cool story. What does that have to do with justifying extermination camps in both countries?
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:50 PM   #36
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Cool story. What does that have to do with justifying extermination camps in both countries?
We should invade China, Israel, and Saudi Arabia right away!! There are maybe a dozen countries in Africa, too!

Ruanda....Hiroshima...

We are awful selective in the exterminations we care about.

EDIT: The Cherokees told me so.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:52 PM   #37
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We should invade China, Israel, and Saudi Arabia right away!! There are maybe a dozen countries in Africa, too!

Ruanda....Hiroshima...

We are awful selective in the exterminations we care about.
Should I interpret this deflection as a concession your point was wrong? (I'm going to anyway FTR)
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Old 01-02-2018, 03:02 PM   #38
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Should I interpret this deflection as a concession your point was wrong? (I'm going to anyway FTR)
How is it a deflection? China, Saudi Arabia, and Israel are the biggest abusers of human rights on the planet, including lopping off heads, torturing and killing children, and the list goes on.

How is annihilating the American Indians any different, or dropping an atomic bomb on a civilian population, vaporising 225,000 civilians, including women and children, any different?

Why aren't we going to war in Africa to stop the genocides that forever seem a part of African nations?

How are sanctions that kill 500,000 children in Iraq through starvation and denial of medicine any different than killing 500,000 children in concentration camps through starvation and denial of medicine?

I know the answer. I also know noone will admit it.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-02-2018, 03:16 PM   #39
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How is it a deflection? China, Saudi Arabia, and Israel are the biggest abusers of human rights on the planet, including lopping off heads, torturing and killing children, and the list goes on.

How is annihilating the American Indians any different, or dropping an atomic bomb on a civilian population, vaporising 225,000 civilians, including women and children, any different?

Why aren't we going to war in Africa to stop the genocides that forever seem a part of African nations?

How are sanctions that kill 500,000 children in Iraq through starvation and denial of medicine any different than killing 500,000 children in concentration camps through starvation and denial of medicine?

I know the answer. I also know noone will admit it.
In economics one of the first things taught is that resources have scarcity. In this example, the US Government has a limited amount of fake money it can borrow from its future self in order to effect change elsewhere in the world in order to promote itself as a positive force for good, thus the arbiters of the instruments of government will use that limited fake money to effect change in places that are politically expedient for them personally instead of in a more human-rights focused manner.

In short, nobody cares about Africa anymore. That was soooooo two decades ago. Totes lames.
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Old 01-02-2018, 03:17 PM   #40
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Oh, is your argument all that justifies Germans gassing Jews or Russians sending dissidents to Siberia to freeze to death?

Because that's nonsense if so.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:40 PM   #41
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No country has been invaded more times than Russia. This is their justification for the Warsaw Pact, for example.
Bullshit.

Iraq/Mesopotamia has been invaded a boatload more times.

It's not even the top country in Europe. Poland and Belgium have been invaded more times.


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Germany justified it's expansion by "reuniting the German peoples" and liberating them from foreign aggression, blah, blah, blah.

Empire is always morally justified.
The fact that you equate actual subjugation and direct rule with treaty alliances shows the ridiculousness of your position.


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[B] Incidentally, if Russia were a part of Europe today, it would be ranked #6 in GDP. They're not nearly as big a threat as the west makes them out to be, it is just convenient for Europe because the United States pays the bill of national defense for them. There are literally 5 countries in Europe with a higher GDP than Russia, and could afford to spend money on the military required to wipe Russia from the map if they wanted to.
And here we have it. Russia isn't a threat, they're a "peace loving" people who are only responding to the "running dog imperialist" Americans.

Funny also how Russia's opposition to the US "aggression" is perfectly justified because they were invaded by other countries in the past. But concerns by the Poles, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, etc. about Russia is "misguided" even though they have a long history of being directly subjugated by Russia.

I'm sure they'll all be glad to know that Russia isn't a "threat". I mean they can just ask the Georgians and the Crimeans to vouch for that.

But let's make this simple.

One question Baron, yes or no.

Is there any scenario that would justify US action outside the US, to prevent a future threat from occuring.

For example, suppose the US Code breakers had read the orders to Nagumo's carriers and knew in early November 1941, they were coming.

Would it have been justified to attack them as they sailed towards the US?

Or must we have waited for them to attack us first.
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:15 AM   #42
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In the last two centuries, Russia as invaded by Europeans 4 times. 1812, 1854, 1914 and 1941.

Until quite recently, Russia being attacked by Europe has been in living memory for to centuries. They have a reason to distrust western europeans. Each country takes turns deciding to be world conquerors every couple of generations.

Fortunately, I think nukes sort of put a damper on that impulse.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:01 PM   #43
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In the last two centuries, Russia as invaded by Europeans 4 times. 1812, 1854, 1914 and 1941.
You really don't know what you post, do you.

This is what you said.
No country has been invaded more times than Russia.
No claim about a European country, no claim about "last two centuries".

But, let's leave that aside for the moment, and stick with that limitation.

Belgium was invaded twice by Napoleonic France (1794/1815), 1914, and 1941.

But that's nothing compared to Poland.

Poland was invaded three times during the Three Partitions of Poland: 1772, 1793, and 1795.

There were multiple invasions as part of the Napoleonic Wars.

In 1809 Austria invaded and attacked Warsaw..

After Napoleon's failure in Russia in 1812, the Russians invaded Poland.

In 1830, Poland rose up against Russian occupiers and again in 1863

In 1846 they rose up against Austrian occupiers.

WWI in the East was fought over much of Poland.

In 1919 Czechoslovakia attacked.

It was invaded in the 1919-20 Polish-Soviet war.

It was invaded three times in WWII. Once by the Nazi's and the Soviets in 1939 and again by the Soviets in 1944.

It was subjugated/"occupied" by the Soviets for 45 odd years after that.

Do the math. Poland vastly outnumbers Russia.


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Until quite recently, Russia being attacked by Europe has been in living memory for to centuries. They have a reason to distrust western europeans. Each country takes turns deciding to be world conquerors every couple of generations.
Indeed, and what do you think the Polish attitude towards Russia is?

If you claim that "being attacked by Europe has been in living memory for two (sic) centuries" is true for Russia, then it is most certainly true that the following can be said by Poland.

"being attacked by Russia has been in living memory for two (sic) centuries".


Do you dispute this?

So if this history of attacks justifies Russia "defending themselves" and make the US/Europeans the "bad guys", then it doesn't also mean that from the Polish perspective that Russia is the "bad guy"?

As such, from their standpoint, isn't membership in NATO fully justified?

If it is, then wouldn't our refusal to let them join mean that we endorsed Russia continuing their subjugation?

Where's the morality in that?

BTW, I notice you failed to answer my Japan WWII question.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:53 PM   #44
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Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
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This seems like a good time to mention the 1940 Katyn massacres where, under the guise of collaboration against Germany, Russia requested that Poland send thousands of their best and brightest (military and related citizenry alike)... and proceeded to shoot them all in the back of their heads and dump the bodies into mass graves. They then spent the next 70 years blaming Germany before finally coming clean in 2010. Fittingly, while on their way to paying homage following Russia's admission, the plane carrying the Polish president and half the parliament crashed, killing everyone on board.

In the story of Poland, Russia isn't merely misunderstood, they're a one dimensional cartoon villain.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:58 PM   #45
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Don't forget the mass rapes committed by the Red army on it's march through Poland to Germany.

The stories are absolutely horrific.
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