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Old 12-21-2017, 07:36 AM   #1
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NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard

As we push NATO ever closer to Moscow, and the borders of Russia, recent document dumps prove what the Conspiratorium have maintained from the very beginning...we made promises to Russia that we would not expand NATO eastward as part of negotiating deals with Gorbachev, and then set about violating every agreement we made in the push toward WW3.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early

With any luck, America will bankrupt itself before it succeeds.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:23 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
As we push NATO ever closer to Moscow, and the borders of Russia, recent document dumps prove what the Conspiratorium have maintained from the very beginning...we made promises to Russia that we would not expand NATO eastward as part of negotiating deals with Gorbachev, and then set about violating every agreement we made in the push toward WW3.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-b...-leaders-early

With any luck, America will bankrupt itself before it succeeds.
I let this one slide for a bit, but I can no longer resists.

Baron, with this post you have shown, beyond a doubt, your true colors.

I don't even know where to be begin on this.

First, whatever "promises" were or were not made to Gorbachev regarding NATO expansion, it was made to the USSR.

You might have missed this little historical detail in your never ending crusade against the "running dog imperialist Americans", but that country no longer exists.

So one must ask the logical question.

To whom should that promise apply?

Which part of the former USSR should gain that boon?

Latvia?

Lithuania?

Estonia?

Oh wait.... They asked to join NATO.

I guess they don't ficken count.

Ukraine?

No, no, that can;t count since Russia seized Crimea.

Georgia?

No, same reason.

Oh I get it. Russia! That's the only one that matters. I mean, they're the only ones who are actively opposing the running dog imperialist Americans, so ipso facto, that has to be the only country that counts.

Second, simple question.

Has NATO imposed themselves on any countries?

No, the expansion has been at the request of these nations.

They all have a long and troubled history with Russia, dating back to the Czars and continuing under the USSR.

Why shouldn't they ask for help to maintain their freedom from a country that has a long history of being a repressive regime to their people?

Hell, if the shoe was on the other foot, that it was the US as the "bad guy" and Russia was expanding a treaty organization in Central America or the Middle East, I have zero doubt you would claim it was justifiable and it was the US's past behavior was at fault.

Finaly.

With any luck, America will bankrupt itself before it succeeds.


Really?

You honestly think that the Russians under Putin are the "peace loving" people of the world and the only hope is if the US goes "bankrupt"?

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Old 01-02-2018, 03:53 PM   #3
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Wait...

You mean the new President can't just tear up whatever the old President said/did and reset everything to his own liking?

Donnie Boo-boo is going to be very cross with you Baron.
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Old 01-02-2018, 04:00 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
I let this one slide for a bit, but I can no longer resists.

Baron, with this post you have shown, beyond a doubt, your true colors.

I don't even know where to be begin on this.

First, whatever "promises" were or were not made to Gorbachev regarding NATO expansion, it was made to the USSR.

You might have missed this little historical detail in your never ending crusade against the "running dog imperialist Americans", but that country no longer exists.

So one must ask the logical question.

To whom should that promise apply?

Which part of the former USSR should gain that boon?

Latvia?

Lithuania?

Estonia?

Oh wait.... They asked to join NATO.

I guess they don't ficken count.

Ukraine?

No, no, that can;t count since Russia seized Crimea.

Georgia?

No, same reason.

Oh I get it. Russia! That's the only one that matters. I mean, they're the only ones who are actively opposing the running dog imperialist Americans, so ipso facto, that has to be the only country that counts.

Second, simple question.

Has NATO imposed themselves on any countries?

No, the expansion has been at the request of these nations.

They all have a long and troubled history with Russia, dating back to the Czars and continuing under the USSR.

Why shouldn't they ask for help to maintain their freedom from a country that has a long history of being a repressive regime to their people?

Hell, if the shoe was on the other foot, that it was the US as the "bad guy" and Russia was expanding a treaty organization in Central America or the Middle East, I have zero doubt you would claim it was justifiable and it was the US's past behavior was at fault.

Finaly.

With any luck, America will bankrupt itself before it succeeds.


Really?

You honestly think that the Russians under Putin are the "peace loving" people of the world and the only hope is if the US goes "bankrupt"?

It's not "my post", it's the National Archives, delcassifed December 12th.

The Archive compiled these declassified documents for a panel discussion on November 10, 2017 at the annual conference of the Association for Slavic, East European and Eurasian Studies (ASEEES) in Chicago under the title “Who Promised What to Whom on NATO Expansion?” The panel included:

* Mark Kramer from the Davis Center at Harvard, editor of the Journal of Cold War Studies, whose 2009 Washington Quarterly article argued that the “no-NATO-enlargement pledge” was a “myth”;[4]

* Joshua R. Itkowitz Shifrinson from the Bush School at Texas A&M, whose 2016 International Security article argued the U.S. was playing a double game in 1990, leading Gorbachev to believe NATO would be subsumed in a new European security structure, while working to ensure hegemony in Europe and the maintenance of NATO;[5]

* James Goldgeier from American University, who wrote the authoritative book on the Clinton decision on NATO expansion, Not Whether But When, and described the misleading U.S. assurances to Russian leader Boris Yeltsin in a 2016 WarOnTheRocks article;[6]

* Svetlana Savranskaya and Tom Blanton from the National Security Archive, whose most recent book, The Last Superpower Summits: Gorbachev, Reagan, and Bush: Conversations That Ended the Cold War (CEU Press, 2016) analyzes and publishes the declassified transcripts and related documents from all of Gorbachev’s summits with U.S. presidents, including dozens of assurances about protecting the USSR’s security interests.[7]

[Today’s posting is the first of two on the subject. The second part will cover the Yeltsin discussions with Western leaders about NATO.]
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

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Old 01-02-2018, 06:45 PM   #5
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It's not "my post", it's the National Archives, delcassifed December 12th.
Oh, so they hacked your account and posted it here?

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Old 01-03-2018, 01:05 AM   #6
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I see. If you can't attack the message, you attack the messenger. That's weak.

Funny note on your post, though. Russia "seized" Crimea? You are aware that Crimea voted to rejoin Russia, yes? Not exactly here the term "seized" applies.

Unless, of course...NATO "seized" Estonia.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

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Old 01-03-2018, 05:29 AM   #7
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Funny that Crimea only voted to join Russia after Russia had taken over half the country and inserted a pro-Russian government.

Then again, Baron seems to think Russia is a democracy.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
I see. If you can't attack the message, you attack the messenger. That's weak.

Funny note on your post, though. Russia "seized" Crimea? You are aware that Crimea voted to rejoin Russia, yes? Not exactly here the term "seized" applies.

Unless, of course...NATO "seized" Estonia.
I'm beginning to think you seriously do have a comprehension problem.

Are you honestly suggesting that the following was what was from the "National Archives, delcassifed December 12th."

As we push NATO ever closer to Moscow, and the borders of Russia, recent document dumps prove what the Conspiratorium have maintained from the very beginning...we made promises to Russia that we would not expand NATO eastward as part of negotiating deals with Gorbachev, and then set about violating every agreement we made in the push toward WW3.

With any luck, America will bankrupt itself before it succeeds.


Are you saying you did not write that?

I did not make a single comment about what was posted in your link.

My response was simply to what I quote above.

If you didn't write that, who did?

Oh and as far as your election is concerned, read this.

As I recall, Saddam got 100% of the vote once. Obviously it would be wrong to call him a dictator.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by anderson View Post
Funny that Crimea only voted to join Russia after Russia had taken over half the country and inserted a pro-Russian government.

Then again, Baron seems to think Russia is a democracy.
In Soviet Russia, government votes for you!
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:36 PM   #10
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Russia is Democracy

One Man, One Vote

and that man is Vladimir Putin!
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:47 AM   #11
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In Soviet Russia, government votes for you!
They're not soviet any more, they're oligarchs, just like us.

At any rate, the salient point here, is that Crimea is ethnically Russian. Most Americans are unaware of that. It's no different than the Falklands voting to remain British.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:53 PM   #12
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They're not soviet any more, they're oligarchs, just like us.

At any rate, the salient point here, is that Crimea is ethnically Russian. Most Americans are unaware of that. It's no different than the Falklands voting to remain British.
ein volk, ein reich?
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:13 AM   #13
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Most of Canada is of the same ethnicity as the USA. Does this doctrine give us the right to invade?
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Old 01-08-2018, 11:35 AM   #14
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Most of Canada is of the same ethnicity as the USA. Does this doctrine give us the right to invade?
Only if we're Russian.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:05 PM   #15
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Most of Canada is of the same ethnicity as the USA. Does this doctrine give us the right to invade?
I would say Canada has the right to join the United States if they voted to do so, and the US was amenable.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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