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Old 11-21-2017, 08:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
In order for something to exist it needs somewhere to exist, no?
No.

Some things take up space, some things do not. If you do not require space, you don't have anywhere to be, so to speak.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:32 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
No.

Some things take up space, some things do not. If you do not require space, you don't have anywhere to be, so to speak.
Well how do you make something out of nothing?

If there is absolute nothing and then by will there’s suddenly hundreds of trillions of periodic table elements how does that come to be?

And what “thing” takes up no space?
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:03 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by AnOldTroll View Post
...too convince you heathens there is a God?
Keep in mind what has been written about Him...



I hope this goes somewhere...
Sorry, Bud. There isn't a thing.

I think that it's quite terrifying for a lot of humanity to consider that this is all just random chance and chemical reactions, so some folks came up with a completely ludicrous story to explain it all and keep everybody well-behaved. And folks bought it because it was all they had.

And most people will gladly ignore all the ridiculousness of the Bible and the structure of Christianity (for example) rather than accept that nobody has any idea.

I don't believe in God, but I do believe that the Hammer of the Gods falls on us all completely at random.

Like a cosmic game of whack-a-mole.

Jesus isn't going to take that wheel.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:15 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
Well how do you make something out of nothing?

If there is absolute nothing and then by will there’s suddenly hundreds of trillions of periodic table elements how does that come to be?

And what “thing” takes up no space?
Things like Bosons, quantum fields like the Higgs field, stuff like that. They do not occupy space. They exist but you can pile them on top of one another more or less infinitely.

EDIT: One could argue that things that we all agree exists might qualify, also...such as "consciousness"...which is probably the best analogy to "God".

It's pretty hard to measure or prove the existence of "consciousness", or even to define it...but would any of the "rationalists" here deny that it exists?
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:39 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Things like Bosons, quantum fields like the Higgs field, stuff like that. They do not occupy space. They exist but you can pile them on top of one another more or less infinitely.

EDIT: One could argue that things that we all agree exists might qualify, also...such as "consciousness"...which is probably the best analogy to "God".

It's pretty hard to measure or prove the existence of "consciousness", or even to define it...but would any of the "rationalists" here deny that it exists?
Wouldn’t consciousness reside in the grey matter of humans? Therefore, space.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:40 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Things like Bosons, quantum fields like the Higgs field, stuff like that. They do not occupy space. They exist but you can pile them on top of one another more or less infinitely.

EDIT: One could argue that things that we all agree exists might qualify, also...such as "consciousness"...which is probably the best analogy to "God".

It's pretty hard to measure or prove the existence of "consciousness", or even to define it...but would any of the "rationalists" here deny that it exists?
Consciousness is a poor example since it's an abstraction that doesn't exist in the sense that you mean. It also has no real relevance to god, so I'm not sure where that is coming from.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:56 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
Wouldn’t consciousness reside in the grey matter of humans? Therefore, space.
"Consciousness" is comprised a lots of stuff (sensory detection, data retrieval, thought, etc.), but you are right that it appears to be necessarily sourced in the brain. And all of the other stuff is the same, abstractions that have no true "existence" that have physical bases.

Ultimately, we are ill-equipped to answer the primary question here. Either something is brute fact, meaning it formed with no cause and no precedent, causation stretches back infinitely, or time is so different in the pre-universe realm that we simply cannot grasp how it works. Either way, there is no purely logical path to concluding which is right since each option counters human experience.
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Old 11-21-2017, 01:57 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
Consciousness is a poor example since it's an abstraction that doesn't exist in the sense that you mean. It also has no real relevance to god, so I'm not sure where that is coming from.
Consciousness doesn't exist?

Is there no difference between you and, say, a bacteria?

What is God if not some form of consciousness, regardless of whether corporeal or not?
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Gun Free zones are Safe Spaces for active shooters.

Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:59 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Consciousness doesn't exist?

Is there no difference between you and, say, a bacteria?

What is God if not some form of consciousness, regardless of whether corporeal or not?
You are extremely sloppy with your language here. Please define "exist" before we proceed.
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:02 PM   #70
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You are extremely sloppy with your language here. Please define "exist" before we proceed.
The concept of consciousness either exists, or it does not, yes?

For example, it is theoretically possible for artificial intelligence to achieve consciousness, or it is not theoretically possible, because there is no such thing.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Gun Free zones are Safe Spaces for active shooters.

Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 11-21-2017, 02:05 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
The concept of consciousness either exists, or it does not, yes?

For example, it is theoretically possible for artificial intelligence to achieve consciousness, or it is not theoretically possible, because there is no such thing.
Do you know what an abstraction is?

And, as I asked before, can you please provide your definition of "exist"?

EDIT: And take note of this:

"The concept of consciousness either exists, or it does not, yes?"

Do you understand the distinction between conceptual existence and actual existence? Up until now you've seemingly been arguing for the latter but this comment switches to the former. FWIW, I don't know of anyone who would argue with conceptual existence, I certainly haven't.

Last edited by Oswlek; 11-21-2017 at 02:23 PM..
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Old 11-21-2017, 02:16 PM   #72
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Wouldn’t consciousness reside in the grey matter of humans? Therefore, space.
No one really knows at this point. But it certainly seems as if it arises from the electrical activity within a brain.

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Am not going to argue whether a machine can "really" be alive, "really" be self-aware. Is a virus self-aware? Nyet. How about oyster? I doubt it. A cat? Almost certainly. A human? Don't know about you, tovarishch, but I am. Somewhere along evolutionary chain from macromolecule to human brain self-awareness crept in. Psychologists assert it happens automatically whenever a brain acquires certain very high number of associational paths. Can't see it matters whether paths are protein or platinum.

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Old 11-21-2017, 02:16 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
Do you know what an abstraction is?

And, as I asked before, can you please provide your definition of "exist"?
Your question makes no rational sense to me. Either a thing exists, or it does not.

Stone
Tiger
Rasberry Bush
Bumblebee
Human
Automobile

A. All of these things have consciousness
B. Some of these things have consciousness
C. None of these things have consciousness

Consciousness commonly defined as an awareness of self and environs.

If I judge your question correctly, "C" is a viable answer?

I don't understand.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Gun Free zones are Safe Spaces for active shooters.

Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 11-21-2017, 02:18 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Hawg73 View Post
Sorry, Bud. There isn't a thing.

I think that it's quite terrifying for a lot of humanity to consider that this is all just random chance and chemical reactions, so some folks came up with a completely ludicrous story to explain it all and keep everybody well-behaved. And folks bought it because it was all they had.

And most people will gladly ignore all the ridiculousness of the Bible and the structure of Christianity (for example) rather than accept that nobody has any idea.

I don't believe in God, but I do believe that the Hammer of the Gods falls on us all completely at random.

Like a cosmic game of whack-a-mole.

Jesus isn't going to take that wheel.
Ok buddy.
Let me put it this way, based on stuff I've witnessed in my life,
I believe I am neither lying, deceived, or overly hasty. But that's just me.

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Old 11-21-2017, 02:25 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Your question makes no rational sense to me. Either a thing exists, or it does not.

Stone
Tiger
Rasberry Bush
Bumblebee
Human
Automobile

A. All of these things have consciousness
B. Some of these things have consciousness
C. None of these things have consciousness

Consciousness commonly defined as an awareness of self and environs.

If I judge your question correctly, "C" is a viable answer?

I don't understand.
Please just answer the questions I've provided.

What is an abstraction? How do you define "exist"?
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