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Old 11-17-2017, 08:43 AM   #16
Jaric
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Define God.

If you mean the Christian God, or the God of Abraham I am probably going to ask which version of the God are you telling me is "true".

In all honesty, given that I won't pretend, it's either all in or no in and based on the things that have happened in my life and I still don't have that kind of faith I'd say it's probably not going to happen.
The Abrahamic God is a personification we used to explain "how the world works.". Polytheistic Gods tend be personifications of abstract concepts (beauty, love, rage, etc) which again were used to help explain how the world works.

That personification only gets us so far and we're starting to see the limits of where that can take us. The Atheists seem to think the way forward is the complete removal of God and to live in a rational world devoid of superstition.

This IMO is delusional and will certainly end badly. Man is capable of reason but he is not a rational creature. The idea of man as a rational creature falls apart immediately upon scrutiny.

I think the way forward isn't to abandon God, but to simply have a more sophisticated, updated version of God.

A belief/hope I am sure is just as irrational/delusional as everyone else.
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Old 11-17-2017, 08:52 AM   #17
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If you asked a religious person to talk about God but change any reference of Him to 'Jim' people would think that person was mentally ill. But suddenly when it's God (who is no more real than 'Jim' the imaginary friend) then it's suddenly OK to take everything at face value and appear perfectly sane.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:04 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
That personification only gets us so far and we're starting to see the limits of where that can take us. The Atheists seem to think the way forward is the complete removal of God and to live in a rational world devoid of superstition.
Science seems to have flourished without a more sophisticated, updated version of God.

Jokes aside, I think your description is inapt. I don't know any atheist who thinks man will ever be free of superstition. In fact, it's awareness of our biases and proclivities toward delusion that makes rationality so important.

What I find amusing ironic - particularly in light of recent comments in the Ath Exp thread - is that it's precisely acknowledging how error prone cognitive faculties can be that prompted my journey toward atheism. I allowed myself to admit virtually everything I accepted could be wrong, which gave me the freedom to investigate my beliefs without prickly defensiveness.

So, no, the world will never be free of superstition. The hope is that one day it won't be governed by it.

As for the OP's question, Matt Dillahunty's response rings most true for me. To paraphrase:

"I can't honestly say what would convince me, but god knows what would and he'd have no problem providing it."
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:05 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseontheloose View Post
If you asked a religious person to talk about God but change any reference of Him to 'Jim' people would think that person was mentally ill. But suddenly when it's God (who is no more real than 'Jim' the imaginary friend) then it's suddenly OK to take everything at face value and appear perfectly sane.
Lol!

Never thought of it that way but you’re right!
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:31 AM   #20
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Jokes aside, I think your description is inapt. I don't know any atheist who thinks man will ever be free of superstition. In fact, it's awareness of our biases and proclivities toward delusion that makes rationality so important
Look, I'm as guilty of this as anyone. My utopian vision is basically people in togas having vigorous (but respectful) intellectual arguments where reason governs and when its all over we're collectively smarter.

Then I read Jon Haidt books on the role emotion plays in our decision making process and that immediately went to shit. (I can't get rid of it though, but now it just reminds me of how dumb my dream was). Further examination has done nothing but drive the point home.

The current idea of God was useful, but it's starting to run it's course. I think what's has to happen is not to throw the idea away, but bring it forward so it's useful again. This is where I diverge from the general Atheist viewpoint. I don't disagree with the identification of the problem, just the solution to it.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:01 AM   #21
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Reinventing God(s) is pretty common.

I read a lot about comparative religion. It's been going on since the beginning.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:07 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Reinventing God(s) is pretty common.

I read a lot about comparative religion. It's been going on since the beginning.
Yes, one has to "rescue their dead father from the underworld.". Culture is constantly in the process of reinventing itself otherwise it stagnates and dies. God has to do the same or be banished to the dust bin of history.
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:16 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Reinventing God(s) is pretty common.

I read a lot about comparative religion. It's been going on since the beginning.
Exactly. This is why modern constructs have honed in on remaining areas of ignorance and concepts that appeal to intuition and superstition.

I could be wrong, but I get the sense that Jaric isn't talking about this kind of organic shift done to preserve the concept. His sounds like a more intentional reconstruction that leverages, rather than exploits, human superstition. I haven't a clue how to accomplish this, but it seems like that's where he's coming from.

Last edited by Oswlek; 11-17-2017 at 10:29 AM..
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Old 11-17-2017, 10:24 AM   #24
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The ultimate goal is to kill God, take his throne, and rule over you peasants like the authoritarian despot you secretly crave.

DEUS VULT!
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:04 AM   #25
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Lol!

Never thought of it that way but you’re right!
Ever read about Joe Smith and how Mormonism started? Complete hilarity. Seriously amazing that this religion has persisted.

I might be able to believe in a god that didn't require active suspension of disbelief to get behind. The whole 'faith' requirement (and/or forced compliance) is really all I need to call bullshit on the whole concept.

Add to that the obvious cultural self-serving inconsistencies, and it is painfully clear that god is created by us to serve our needs.

Heathen out!
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:25 AM   #26
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Jaric, you really should read Homo Deus. Well, I suppose everyone that's been discussing the future of religion / future of man.

The book essentially discusses how man is elevating man to god by seeking out (and probably at some point succeeding in reaching) immortality, amongst other things.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:37 AM   #27
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Jaric, you really should read Homo Deus. Well, I suppose everyone that's been discussing the future of religion / future of man.

The book essentially discusses how man is elevating man to god by seeking out (and probably at some point succeeding in reaching) immortality, amongst other things.
I read sapiens and enjoyed it, but by the time the library hold I had on homo deus became available I'd moved on to other interests.

Like "ordinary men" (if you wanna ruin your day, pick that book up.)

I'll put homo deus back on the list.

By the way, the author was a guest on Sam Harris's podcast and it was an awesome interview. Definitely worth a listen
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:46 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Jaric, you really should read Homo Deus. Well, I suppose everyone that's been discussing the future of religion / future of man.

The book essentially discusses how man is elevating man to god by seeking out (and probably at some point succeeding in reaching) immortality, amongst other things.
One of my thoughts on purpose (not entirely original): If there were a Creator who set all this in motion for a reason, it seems far more likely he wanted companions than house pets.
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Old 11-17-2017, 11:59 AM   #29
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One of my thoughts on purpose (not entirely original): If there were a Creator who set all this in motion for a reason, it seems far more likely he wanted companions than house pets.
Only if you assume that being shares the same motivations you do.

I'd assume, if there really is that kind of "prime mover," his (for lack of a better word) motivations would be completely foreign to us and completely unfathomable.

There's no amount of empathy that can get you to understand what motivated a being capable of creation. Hell our concept of creation isn't even compatible with this (ie who created the prime mover?)
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:04 PM   #30
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I'd like to think that we are just microbes helping to ferment God's ale...

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