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Old 11-13-2017, 10:35 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
Your usage is so poorly defined as to have no utility (at least for this conversation). If my children are of greatest importance to me, does that make me a theist?
That's probably because my usage has little interest in what group that puts me into. I'm not all that concerned about it. I am however very concerned about trying to make sense of this world and how to live while in it. In that context the definition is incredibly helpful.

The problem I have with atheism is the same problem I have with most organized religions. Neither seem to understand the personification of abstract concepts was a cognitive tool to help express a higher idea. Atheists get so caught up in disproving sky guy that they don't even bother trying to understand where sky guy came from in the process.

Last edited by Jaric; 11-13-2017 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 11-13-2017, 10:44 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
The distinction you are looking for is dogmatism. Every "secular" religion (to continue this ill-usage) placed their government leaders in deistic positions.

When more proper distinctions are made, secular societies demonstrate consistently superior health by virtually every factor, from education, to murder rates, to teenage pregnancies.
You appear to be agreeing with me that non sky guy believers are just as capable of making the same mistake as sky guy believers.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:12 AM   #48
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That's probably because my usage has little interest in what group that puts me into. I'm not all that concerned about it. I am however very concerned about trying to make sense of this world and how to live while in it. In that context the definition is incredibly helpful.

The problem I have with atheism is the same problem I have with most organized religions. Neither seem to understand the personification of abstract concepts was a cognitive tool to help express a higher idea. Atheists get so caught up in disproving sky guy that they don't even bother trying to understand where sky guy came from in the process.
Bold #1 doesn't follow in any way from what I wrote.

Bold #2 isn't remotely true. You are literally having a wholly detached conversation from the one I'm having.

Quote:
You appear to be agreeing with me that non sky guy believers are just as capable of making the same mistake as sky guy believers.
Everyone is fallible.

Do you get the point that non-belief wasn't the driving force behind any of the "secular" atrocities?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:20 AM   #49
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What exactly is "non belief?"
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
What exactly is "non belief?"
Exactly what the words mean?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:23 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
Exactly what the words mean?
Believing something doesn't exist is still a belief.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:29 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Believing something doesn't exist is still a belief.
This is a classic misinterpretation that has been clarified here time and time again.

P1: God(s) exist.
P2: God(s) don't exist.

Rejection of P1 doesn't not automatically mean P2 is accepted.

But even that is irrelevant since my point stands either way, this mild detour is a red herring. Secular atrocities were motivated by dogmatism, not disbelief.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:37 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
This is a classic misinterpretation that has been clarified here time and time again.

P1: God(s) exist.
P2: God(s) don't exist.

Rejection of P1 doesn't not automatically mean P2 is accepted.
So you reject the existence of God, but not the non-existence?


Quote:
But even that is irrelevant since my point stands either way, this mild detour is a red herring. Secular atrocities were motivated by dogmatism, not disbelief.
As were the non secular ones. Which is why I use the term "secular religion". The behavior pattern is the same.

Last edited by Jaric; 11-13-2017 at 11:43 AM..
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:43 AM   #54
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So you reject the existence of God, but not the non-existence?.
It is perfectly valid to reject one without accepting the other; they are distinct claims. What I personally do is immaterial to this conversation.

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As were non secular one. Which is why I use the term "secular religion". The behavior pattern is the same
If you said, "it is possible for dogmatism to arise without religion", I would completely agree. The problem is that you are saying that with a "secular religion" linguistic approach and then (perhaps unintentionally) attributing blame to the "secular" descriptor.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:50 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
It is perfectly valid to reject one without accepting the other; they are distinct claims. What I personally do is immaterial to this conversation.
so what specific belief would allow one to reject "god exists" but not accept "God doesn't exist."

That seems like nonsense, but perhaps I'm missing something.

Quote:
If you said, "it is possible for dogmatism to arise without religion", I would completely agree. The problem is that you are saying that with a "secular religion" linguistic approach and then (perhaps unintentionally) attributing blame to the "secular" descriptor.
The point I was making is that the presence of sky guy was irrelevent for this behavior pattern.
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:58 AM   #56
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so what specific belief would allow one to reject "god exists" but not accept "God doesn't exist."

That seems like nonsense, but perhaps I'm missing something.

The point I was making is that the presence of sky guy was irrelevent for this behavior pattern.
1) An igtheist is one example, someone who finds "god" so poorly defined that it is impossible for them to properly assess either side.

It's really not that unusual in other contexts. If you aren't convinced the there is an odd number of marbles in a jar, does that mean you think the number is even?

2) Not irrelevant, unnecessary. These are not synonymous.
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
1) An igtheist is one example, someone who finds "god" so poorly defined that it is impossible for them to properly assess either side.

It's really not that unusual in other contexts. If you aren't convinced the there is an odd number of marbles in a jar, does that mean you think the number is even?
Jesus, why not just say "I don't know?".

Quote:
2) Not irrelevant, unnecessary. These are not synonymous.
Didn't say they were. Just because someone doesn't believe in sky guy doesn't mean they don't have their own kind of nonsense they believe in
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:13 PM   #58
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Jesus, why not just say "I don't know?".


They aren't, but that doesn't mean mean they both don't apply to a given situation.
1) "I don't know" is colloquially acceptable, but we're going to more philosophical depth. It also needs to be pointed out that knowledge and belief are different realms.

2) Of course. Both could apply or one or the other. It's probably my fault, but your responses indicate your still aren't getting my point.

How about another tack. For the purposes of this discussion, "secular" is a neutral term, by itself it cannot cause an atrocity to occur. However, it is perfectly possible for dogma to emerge within a secular society.

Religion, on the other hand, comes with built in dogma that can and does lead to harm, both "honestly" (by people acting on what they truly think the doctrines command) and by manipulation of the indoctrinated.

Do you see the difference now?
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:43 PM   #59
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I really don't think we do need to go any further than "I don't know.". Certainly not yet anyway. Let's start sorting that out before we try and move forward.
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Old 11-13-2017, 12:57 PM   #60
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Regarding dogma: I understood your point, I just disagree that secular religions don't come with their own dogma attached.
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