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Old 11-03-2017, 02:15 PM   #31
Darth Despot
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Obviously not, if I were their child I'd have received a golden ticket.
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
If there is a family owned business that's worth more than 5 million dollars and has no debt (the 5 million is net worth, not gross), and the family cant afford to pay the tax on the EXCESS at 35-40% then I question the ability of the family to successfully manage the business. Let's say you have a $10 million dollar business with no debt, the tax would be $2 million. That's not chump change but to say you needed to sell the business over that requires a whole lot of "what ifs" to line up.
There is a difference between valuation and cash flow.

Imagine a restaraunt in Boston being run by an elderly couple. Their kids have grown up, went to college, got married, had kids, and are well into their own careers in, say, Michigan and North Carolina.

Now, the parents die and will the restaraunt to the kids. They're supposed to have a couple million dollars laying around, with a mortgage, car lona, and kids' college funds? To keep a restaraunt that clears $3000 a day after overhead and payroll, they need to take out another loan for $2 Million dollars, on top of their own mortgage and other expenses, when their own household income is, say...$180,000?

Of course not.

They sell the business to pay the tax, and keep whatever is left over. End of the road for the family restaraunt or hardware store in Boston.

People bitch about Walmart and Home Depot killing family businesses, but those same people are OK with the government killing family businesses. It's insanely illogical. At least Walmart and Home Depot provide something to the community after the family business is wiped out.

All that pro-estate tax cheerleading, with all the associated pain involved, just so the government doesn't have to take a 1% revenue cut. That's a pathetic joke, in my opinion.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:28 PM   #33
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Baron your example is of a family where the kids have no interest in running the business, it's going to be sold anyway.

If there is 5 million in assets and no debt "lying around" the argument that the business has to be folded to pay the tax is just not real.

The valuation of an estate is Assets - liabilities.

If you have 5 million in net assets and no estate planning I am a tad shocked.

When I set up my original example I use 10 million for a reason, it's the worst case scenario mathematically. But it doesn't shange the fact that $10 million in NET assets and a $2 million tax liability is no reason to close a business. I deal with a lot of banks, they will be more than happy to loan money at that coverage ratio.

Last edited by Darth Despot; 11-03-2017 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Baron your example is of a family where the kids have no interest in running the business, it's going to be sold anyway.
Really.

You think that the answer is the same with or without the death tax? You believe that a $2 Million dollar bill to Uncle Sam has no impact on that decision, either way?

I strongly disagree.

EDIT: To elaborate...I think that absent the $2 Million dollar tax bill, selling or renting their homes and moving back to Boston to take over the business is a realistic consideration.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:38 PM   #35
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BTW a small restaurant clearing 3000 a day is not worth 5 million dollars.

If your estate is worth less than 5 millon there is no tax.

Where the issue is is number of children. It the estate is worth 5 million and there are 12 kids then the math is kind of shitty.

---------- Post added at 03:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Really.

You think that the answer is the same with or without the death tax? You believe that a $2 Million dollar bill to Uncle Sam has no impact on that decision, either way?

I strongly disagree.

EDIT: To elaborate...I think that absent the $2 Million dollar tax bill, selling or renting their homes and moving back to Boston to take over the business is a realistic consideration.
In your example the only difference is who gets the money from the sale.

My sympathy for 2 people splitting 10 millon is minimal. (rememeber 5 million = 0 tax)
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my father now dead,
I am up front to draw the fire.
I look back,
and one of those I was to protect has fallen."

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Old 11-03-2017, 02:44 PM   #36
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Quote:
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BTW a small restaurant clearing 3000 a day is not worth 5 million dollars.

If your estate is worth less than 5 millon there is no tax.

Where the issue is is number of children. It the estate is worth 5 million and there are 12 kids then the math is kind of shitty.
I have some experience in the restaraunt business...and I can definiteively tell you that, in a good location, without a liquor license, the overhead can be extreme and the profits margins very thin. I mean very thin. There isn't a lot of profit in preparing and serving food. The profit is in the drinks and desserts...and even that is miniscule compared to liquor.

On the other hand, such a location could be on very, very valuable property, which is what makes it a good location, but also expensive to pay the taxes on, and the utilities.

A restaraunt without a liquor license may be doing very well to make a $1 Million dollar profit in a year, after all expenses.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 11-03-2017, 02:52 PM   #37
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Why does the government have more of a claim on my parents possessions than I do?
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Old 11-03-2017, 03:17 PM   #38
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Why does the government have more of a claim on my parents possessions than I do?
That's what I want to know

~Dee~
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:59 PM   #39
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Why does the government have more of a claim on my parents possessions than I do?
Because the government is our universal parent.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 11-03-2017, 06:23 PM   #40
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Why does the government have more of a claim on my parents possessions than I do?
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:13 PM   #41
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Obviously not, if I were their child I'd have received a golden ticket.
So because you weren't ..... punish them? What golden ticket cause I missed out on that as did my children and grandchildren in your view. We made our money were wealthy not crazy wealthy but more then your examples. We worked hard for it nothing was given to us.

I have 4 children, 5 grandchildren at the moment 6 is due any time now. We own 4 businesses. ( not going to lie we have really great estate attorneys who are working hard to make our wishes come true.). We our estate, will still have to pay estate taxes and they my children will pay inheritance tax regardless of how much we gift because most of the value is property. Now we could spend it all and say screw you... Not happening.

We my husband and I, as well as my children sacrificed. They my children worked hard to pay for what they wanted. They didn't get the coolest sneakers no cell phones and lived a no frills life's. They had to work for everything they wanted not needed. School was important and they knew they had to pay for it. They the boys joined the military.

My daughter busted her butt and is now a military spouse. My boys get zero for their service, meaning no pension, no healthcare, they do get vet loans, they did get some of their college costs paid. In one case one of my sons children will get 70% of they're higher education covered by a state school. He paid his own way leaving his tuition supplement to a child he didn't even have yet.

So yes we all contributed and because we all sacrificed to prepare for the future thinking we/ they could provide a comfortable life for themselves and their children you're saying to bad you got a golden ticket? Tell that to my kids.

~Dee~
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:22 PM   #42
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So because you weren't ..... punish them? What golden ticket cause I missed out on that as did my children and grandchildren in your view. We made our money were wealthy not crazy wealthy but more then your examples. We worked hard for it nothing was given to us.

I have 4 children, 5 grandchildren at the moment 6 is due any time now. We own 4 businesses. ( not going to lie we have really great estate attorneys who are working hard to make our wishes come true.). We our estate, will still have to pay estate taxes and they my children will pay inheritance tax regardless of how much we gift because most of the value is property. Now we could spend it all and say screw you... Not happening.

We my husband and I, as well as my children sacrificed. They my children worked hard to pay for what they wanted. They didn't get the coolest sneakers no cell phones and lived a no frills life's. They had to work for everything they wanted not needed. School was important and they knew they had to pay for it. They the boys joined the military.

My daughter busted her butt and is now a military spouse. My boys get zero for their service, meaning no pension, no healthcare, they do get vet loans, they did get some of their college costs paid. In one case one of my sons children will get 70% of they're higher education covered by a state school. He paid his own way leaving his tuition supplement to a child he didn't even have yet.

So yes we all contributed and because we all sacrificed to prepare for the future thinking we/ they could provide a comfortable life for themselves and their children you're saying to bad you got a golden ticket? Tell that to my kids.

~Dee~
Dee, talk to an estate planner. You can do things like place your properties into an irrevocable trust or put them into a life estate. There are ways to avoid certain taxes or have the least amounts taxed for yourselves and/or your heirs.
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Old 11-04-2017, 08:01 AM   #43
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Dee, talk to an estate planner. You can do things like place your properties into an irrevocable trust or put them into a life estate. There are ways to avoid certain taxes or have the least amounts taxed for yourselves and/or your heirs.
Thanks Lisa, we have an estate planner, 2 attorneys, and an accountant working with us. Unfortunately your still going to pay taxes not as much but you're paying. We've started trusts and gifting, we have a will and doing all we can.

I guess my point is/was why does the government get first dibs on my estate that has been paying taxes for years.

The notion that because you worked your butt off, and made sacrifices along the way, to become successful and wealthy, some how my children won a lottery, and get free $hit is bull $hit.

~Dee~
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Old 11-04-2017, 06:57 PM   #44
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You were talking about gift tax. You the person pays the tax on the gift not the person receiving it. Now at some point depending on what it's use for the recipient may have to pay captital gains tax or property tax.

Now the estate which you've been paying taxes on while alive is taxed once again before, it's given to those who inherit it. Then those who inherit it pay an inheritance tax. So it's really triple tax not double.

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Who pays the tax is irrelevant if your argument is simply that double taxation is wrong.
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Old 11-04-2017, 07:10 PM   #45
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Who pays the tax is irrelevant if your argument is simply that double taxation is wrong.
No actually my arguemnt was triple tax on the estate but whatever. You threw in gift tax. If you buy a gift from 10 - a million dollars you the gift giver is paying the tax, its s gift, the estate can only give so many gifts monetarily before the government steps in

Your analogy had nothing to do with estate taxes, but understand the confusion because death tax, estate tax, and inheritance tax are all lump together as if the all mean the same thing they don't.

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