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Old 06-21-2017, 10:45 AM   #61
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Planeteers may or may not have noticed, I don't comment a lot in threads about gay issues and LBGTQWTFBBQ issues.

The fact is, if I don't give a sh*t, does that make me a bigot/homophobe or whatever? I mean, does my lack of enthusiasm constitute a hate crime?

My view about all that stuff is;

1) People shouldn't need a government permission slip to get married int he first place, and

2) Any private baker should be able to bake or not bake anything they want. Kind of a "No shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. A Jewish baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a Nazi cake, and a Christian baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a gay rainbow cake, and a Boston baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a New York Yankees cake, and a black baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a KKK-Kake.

3) A private Chinese restaraunt should be able to hire all chinese workers, and a black gas station owner should be able to hire only black attendants, and a white gas station owner should be able to hire only white attendants.

I simply apply my principles to the issue...whether it's about gay people or Nazi's is not relevant to me, and I don't care either way.

It gets really frustrating to me that most Americans seem to base their view on superficial things, like which side is more in political favor than the other, rather than anything fundamental, and they have no qualms about taking hte opposite view of the parties switch sides, pure doublethink. They can't even see their own contradiction. If I think business owners should be able to conduct their own business their own way, that makes me some kind of racist homophobe or something. Principles of property rights are something the average American can't even comprehend or grasp it seems.

..to say nothing of the 1st Amendment. Guess what, the 1st amendment was created precisely to protect hate speech! Milo can say anything he wants, and I support him 100%. That has no relevance with whether I agree with him or not.

On top of that, it seems like people are "you are either 100% for, or 100% against this person or that group." Really? Sometimes I agree with Milo, sometimes I disagree. I support Obama's deal with Iran, but that doesn't make me an Obama fanboy. I oppose Trump's proposed wall, but that doesn't make me a Trump hater.

I don't know...I get the feeling Americans have no core, no soul, no principles at all. They can't even conceive of it, they are only concerned with being seen on the "correct" team with any issue, and the actual issue itself is totally irrelevant.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:47 AM   #62
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You are conflating what you call "conservatives acting to stabilize culture" with our desire to be left alone and our desire to raise our kids and live our lives as we see fit. The left simply does not allow for it in their current platform. They are the Borg and we must assimilate to their liberalism or else they will.... well look around.
I'm not suggesting it's intentional on the part of conservatives that's just how it tends to play out. Your next paragraph describing your circle of friends and their respect for the traditions and instutions they grew up with (a very conservative trait btw) is vital to a healthy society and one of the reasons liberals need conservatives.

Edit: By the way, the isn't just Jaric engaging in political bro science, Jordan Peterson has several videos about this subject and Jonathon Haidt has written about this subject in his books. Both of which I strongly recommend.

Last edited by Jaric; 06-21-2017 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:00 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
I'm not suggesting it's intentional on the part of conservatives that's just how it tends to play out. Your next paragraph describing your circle of friends and their respect for the traditions and instutions they grew up with (a very conservative trait btw) is vital to a healthy society and one of the reasons liberals need conservatives.

Edit: By the way, the isn't just Jaric engaging in political bro science, Jordan Peterson has several videos about this subject and Jonathon Haidt has written about this subject in his books. Both of which I strongly recommend.
Okay, I get that.

Wrt the "next paragraph", you must see that on the right, we want to be left alone and follow the law and our own beliefs. On the left that is increasingly untrue.

Imagine a world where the commies and the hateful left didn't exist. It would not make me change my views or my ways one iota. If the opposite were true, the left would just find another faction to hate.

I get your point about balance and in the middle, I agree. The issue today is that the left is far further out from the middle than the right is.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:09 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by aloyouis View Post
I get your point about balance and in the middle, I agree. The issue today is that the left is far further out from the middle than the right is.
I don't disagree and spend quite a bit of my time trying to convince my liberal friends of just that. Unfortunately, the response I see from the right is to respond in kind, which is both completely understandable and completely unproductive.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:14 AM   #65
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I don't disagree and spend quite a bit of my time trying to convince my liberal friends of just that. Unfortunately, the response I see from the right is to respond in kind, which is both completely understandable and completely unproductive.
You see the right going further right in response to the left going further left? If that is what you mean, than I disagree. The left and their increasingly violent and anti-American beliefs have zero impact on my beliefs.

Now, if you mean that there are now 3 guns in my house instead of 1 (Including a small shot gun) because I feel less safe due these hooligans, then I guess you are right about that. But this has to do more with the lefts actual actions (not beliefs).
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:33 AM   #66
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That's it in a nutshell. We're not talking to each other. We're not even listening to each other.
As I have described in other posts, it isn't a question of talking or listening, it's a lack of communication.

The two sides have their own perspective and associated unstated assumptions and they assume the other side has the same set.

They don't.

Those act as a "filter" that is used to interpret the meaning of any statement and so neither side is really capable of understanding what the true meaning of many statements made by the other side.

So side A is trying to communicate X. Side B interprets that to mean Y.

IMHO, people simply need to ask for clarification of what the other side says and make sure they truly understand what idea they are trying to communicate.

Stop getting defensive if someone asks you for clarification. If they ask you if you meant "Z" and you find Z "offensive, a simple answer of "no that's not what I meant" will suffice and it isn't necessary to claim offense that they were asking the question.

And don't try to tell the other person they're wrong if they claim that your interpretation of what they meant isn't correct. I'm pretty sure most people have a damn good idea of what the concept was they were trying to express.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:08 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Planeteers may or may not have noticed, I don't comment a lot in threads about gay issues and LBGTQWTFBBQ issues.

The fact is, if I don't give a sh*t, does that make me a bigot/homophobe or whatever? I mean, does my lack of enthusiasm constitute a hate crime?

My view about all that stuff is;

1) People shouldn't need a government permission slip to get married int he first place, and

2) Any private baker should be able to bake or not bake anything they want. Kind of a "No shirt, no shoes, no service" policy. A Jewish baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a Nazi cake, and a Christian baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a gay rainbow cake, and a Boston baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a New York Yankees cake, and a black baker shouldn't be compelled to bake a KKK-Kake.

3) A private Chinese restaraunt should be able to hire all chinese workers, and a black gas station owner should be able to hire only black attendants, and a white gas station owner should be able to hire only white attendants.

I simply apply my principles to the issue...whether it's about gay people or Nazi's is not relevant to me, and I don't care either way.

It gets really frustrating to me that most Americans seem to base their view on superficial things, like which side is more in political favor than the other, rather than anything fundamental, and they have no qualms about taking hte opposite view of the parties switch sides, pure doublethink. They can't even see their own contradiction. If I think business owners should be able to conduct their own business their own way, that makes me some kind of racist homophobe or something. Principles of property rights are something the average American can't even comprehend or grasp it seems.

..to say nothing of the 1st Amendment. Guess what, the 1st amendment was created precisely to protect hate speech! Milo can say anything he wants, and I support him 100%. That has no relevance with whether I agree with him or not.

On top of that, it seems like people are "you are either 100% for, or 100% against this person or that group." Really? Sometimes I agree with Milo, sometimes I disagree. I support Obama's deal with Iran, but that doesn't make me an Obama fanboy. I oppose Trump's proposed wall, but that doesn't make me a Trump hater.

I don't know...I get the feeling Americans have no core, no soul, no principles at all. They can't even conceive of it, they are only concerned with being seen on the "correct" team with any issue, and the actual issue itself is totally irrelevant.
At one time this may have been the case, but I think it's eroding. The Left is losing across the board on every issue. The side that is winning is the side that doesn't give a shit and just wants to be left alone to raise our families, pay our bills, and live our lives. That's why Trump won and why Democrats keep losing. It will still take a little more time but the ground swell in this direction is definitely gaining momentum. People are tired of being told that they're xyz when not only do they not prescribe to some BS PC agenda but really don't care one way or the other as it doesn't affect them directly.
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Old 06-21-2017, 03:23 PM   #68
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You would call me a "strict" conservative yet this isn't true. I have no issues with gay people or any people that go about their own business. Nor do I wish to alter their way of life. To each his own.

I DO have issues when they (almost all liberals) demand to stick it in my face or alter my way of life. If someone thinks they are a "zhe" and not a "she" or "he", I don't give a shit. Just don't expect me to change what I believe and we will get along just fine.

The main difference is that most conservatives are like me. Leave each other alone. Respect each others views but leave each other alone. Stay out of my pocket.

Fine with me.
Hey, we actually agree on something.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:02 PM   #69
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I don't disagree and spend quite a bit of my time trying to convince my liberal friends of just that. Unfortunately, the response I see from the right is to respond in kind, which is both completely understandable and completely unproductive.
All the liberals I know, and that's a significant number, think they are center left. They consider themselves moderates.

They don't know that they constitute the extreme left.

I think that is largely because of the echo chamber effect of being in MA, and Cambridge and all. Everyone they know agrees with them.

I think that's where the confusion comes from when they lose, especially when the media keeps telling them they will win, like this election and the 1980 election. The reactions are very similar also.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:11 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
All the liberals I know, and that's a significant number, think they are center left. They consider themselves moderates.

They don't know that they constitute the extreme left.

I think that is largely because of the echo chamber effect of being in MA, and Cambridge and all. Everyone they know agrees with them.

I think that's where the confusion comes from when they lose, especially when the media keeps telling them they will win, like this election and the 1980 election. The reactions are very similar also.
My far left friends do know they're far left. I'm also in Indiana, so far left stands out more. Hell, by some standards I might be far left relative to some areas here.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:16 PM   #71
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My far left friends do know they're far left. I'm also in Indiana, so far left stands out more. Hell, by some standards I might be far left relative to some areas here.
You are, and in more that just rural Indiana.
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:31 PM   #72
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It's pretty sneaky for the fascists to call themselves, "anti-fascists".

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Old 06-22-2017, 05:58 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by aloyouis View Post
You are, and in more that just rural Indiana.
What, because I don't like Trump I'm far left now?
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:54 AM   #74
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What, because I don't like Trump I'm far left now?
No.

You placed yourself on the far left vs rural Indiana. I am simply stating that there is far more "rural Indiana" out there across the country than you probably realize.
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Old 06-22-2017, 07:19 AM   #75
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No.

You placed yourself on the far left vs rural Indiana. I am simply stating that there is far more "rural Indiana" out there across the country than you probably realize.
Just so you know, "rural Indiana" is like a 15 minute drive from my house. I have way more in common with those folks than the so called "liberal elites.". The comment you responded to was referring to specific pockets, not all of rural America.
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