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Old 09-26-2012, 08:43 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tehrick67 View Post
I understand the hate for , but does anyone think he's not doing what the owners want? I can't see the owners wanting to end this, but Roger telling them no. He works for them.
This is my take on the issue as well. It's not holding this thing up, it's the owners.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:15 AM   #17
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I blame the refs. Greedy bastards.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:19 AM   #18
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If this can be accomplished...I would like to see the fans at the next scheduled set of weekend games, not enter the stadium or sit in their seats for the entire first quarter as a form of protest.

I know it will never happen league wide, but maybe on a marquee night game, (Th, Su or M). I think with the visual effect of a game starting without fans, it would be a very powerful message.

I also think it would be easier for a team's fan base who have gotten screwed out of a game to pull this off, such as the Patriots, Packers, 49'ers.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:20 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehrick67 View Post
This league makes 9 billion dollars a year. You want the best ref's? pay them. They aren't looking for anything more than they we're already getting.

The NFL took for granted the role they play, they figured they could easily be replaced.
The refs are looking for a substantial raise thru 2018. One figure I saw had it at around 40K a year to approximately 190K on average. Plus, the pension stuff.

It's easy to say the refs are getting porked and they should get paid, but while they are not paid quite what refs in other pro sports are, they also work far fewer games. About one tenth of what baseball umpires and a third of the games basketball and hockey officials work.

Not bad for a part-time job.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg73 View Post
The refs are looking for a substantial raise thru 2018. One figure I saw had it at around 40K a year to approximately 190K on average. Plus, the pension stuff.

It's easy to say the refs are getting porked and they should get paid, but while they are not paid quite what refs in other pro sports are, they also work far fewer games. About one tenth of what baseball umpires and a third of the games basketball and hockey officials work.

Not bad for a part-time job.
At this point, it doesn't matter what pay they're asking for. By all reports, that issue has been agreed upon. It's down to pension vs 401K for the existing refs (they've agreed to have new refs go into a 401K).
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:30 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Hawg73 View Post
The refs are looking for a substantial raise thru 2018. One figure I saw had it at around 40K a year to approximately 190K on average. Plus, the pension stuff.

It's easy to say the refs are getting porked and they should get paid, but while they are not paid quite what refs in other pro sports are, they also work far fewer games. About one tenth of what baseball umpires and a third of the games basketball and hockey officials work.

Not bad for a part-time job.
Sure, but in any negotiation you ask for more than you expect to get.

I think a reasonable deal can be reached, it just feels to me like the owners didn't think these guys are worth it.

This league made (I think) 9 billion dollars last year, they are always loking for ways to bring in more revenue. Find a way to make a good deal for both parties.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:36 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSanders View Post
For #2, they are resisting checks and balances that would hold them accountable for their performance and keep the crews younger by adding officials, and benching guys who don't grade out.
I keep hearing that this is a sticking point and nobody mentions it much and little is known about the particulars. Apparently the owners want better performance and consistency and the refs are balking. No union wants it's members to be subject to discipline or job loss and they could easily blame the league for the rules policy in general for their inability to be more consistent. It could be a bigger deal in the negotiations than is commonly believed.

Lost in all the issues with the scrub refs is that the regular refs were struggling to keep up with all the rule changes and many other aspects of the game. Now they look like relative superstars, but in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man seems to be king.

If they are looking for almost a 20-something% raise over seven years then they should be happy to accept a plan that expects top performance. That's a huge raise by most private business standards and far more than I ever got over 7 years during 36 1/2 years in the corporate world.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg73 View Post
I keep hearing that this is a sticking point and nobody mentions it much and little is known about the particulars. Apparently the owners want better performance and consistency and the refs are balking. No union wants it's members to be subject to discipline or job loss and they could easily blame the league for the rules policy in general for their inability to be more consistent. It could be a bigger deal in the negotiations than is commonly believed.

Lost in all the issues with the scrub refs is that the regular refs were struggling to keep up with all the rule changes and many other aspects of the game. Now they look like relative superstars, but in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man seems to be king.

If they are looking for almost a 20-something% raise over seven years then they should be happy to accept a plan that expects top performance. That's a huge raise by most private business standards and far more than I ever got over 7 years during 36 1/2 years in the corporate world.
This has also been settled. Chev posted this in another thread:

Quote:
The NFL and the NFL Referees Association have come to an agreement on the issue of backup crews, an NFLRA source said Wednesday.
The 21 backup officials, who will not be NFLRA members, will be in a developmental program. The purpose of the developmental league is to train the backup officials and expose them how to work with the NFL.
The 21 backup officials will work with NFL crews throughout the week but will not work games and will not be eligible to be subbed out.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawg73 View Post
I keep hearing that this is a sticking point and nobody mentions it much and little is known about the particulars. Apparently the owners want better performance and consistency and the refs are balking. No union wants it's members to be subject to discipline or job loss and they could easily blame the league for the rules policy in general for their inability to be more consistent. It could be a bigger deal in the negotiations than is commonly believed.

Lost in all the issues with the scrub refs is that the regular refs were struggling to keep up with all the rule changes and many other aspects of the game. Now they look like relative superstars, but in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man seems to be king.

If they are looking for almost a 20-something% raise over seven years then they should be happy to accept a plan that expects top performance. That's a huge raise by most private business standards and far more than I ever got over 7 years during 36 1/2 years in the corporate world.
The only issue I keep hearing about is the pension. it would be nice if someone in the media could get a real sense for what the issues are and give us that info.

Instead, they just keep giving us the same thing over and over. At the end of the day the league needs to settle or fire these guys and find suitable replacements.

I agree on the raise, I haven't had one in 2 1/2 years, but rarley does anything with pro sports mirror the real world.
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Old 09-26-2012, 09:51 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bideau View Post
At this point, it doesn't matter what pay they're asking for. By all reports, that issue has been agreed upon. It's down to pension vs 401K for the existing refs (they've agreed to have new refs go into a 401K).
I think it does matter because they are both forms of compensation. More pay equals a greater ability to contribute to a personal 401K.

In my former industry the company stopped paying into my wife's (same company) management pension plan some years ago without any increase in pay to offset that. Her pension stopped accumulating and she was informed that she is welcome to contribute to her own 401K now and, btw, tough titty if you don't like that. Go ahead and quit.

Pensions already accrued shouldn't be lost as I believe that is federal law and not an option for the NFL, but the numbers that have been mentioned seem quite adequate for the refs to have secure, comfortable retirements if they wish by doing their own thing.

They'll never exactly be rich, but they shouldn't be because nobody pays to see them.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bideau View Post
This has also been settled. Chev posted this in another thread:


Quote:
The NFL and the NFL Referees Association have come to an agreement on the issue of backup crews, an NFLRA source said Wednesday.
The 21 backup officials, who will not be NFLRA members, will be in a developmental program. The purpose of the developmental league is to train the backup officials and expose them how to work with the NFL.
The 21 backup officials will work with NFL crews throughout the week but will not work games and will not be eligible to be subbed out
Thank you for pointing that out, but that statement raises questions as well.

So, does this mean that the developmental guys will get up to speed and replace guys only through attrition as they retire? Or injured? What happens if a ref gets canned for some reason? Do they promote a sub and let him join the union?

I think there is probably more to it.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:22 AM   #27
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Compensation for NFL referees is not even a line item in the NFL budget. The yearly charge is so small, they are added into the miscellaneous column. Relative to the overall budget, the $ amounts in discussion are so small that they could raise the price of stadium hotdogs by 5 cents to cover the cost. Why they can't make the small investment here is beyond my comprehension.....
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:28 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehrick67 View Post
I have zero love for and if he loses his job I wont shed a tear. i agree his leadership sucks and I'm not defending him.

I just don't but this guy is telling the owners what to do. He may have given them bad advice. I heard Jonathan and I think he's full of it. If Bob, Jerry Jones, Dan Snyder and so on wanted this over, it would be over IMO.
I agree......the owners are making millions of dollars.....and it is the owners who are refusing to change / enhance / improve the refs retirement package. Funny how we don't hear the owners screaming about the bad job the refs are doing
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:32 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetstream1066 View Post
I agree......the owners are making millions of dollars.....and it is the owners who are refusing to change / enhance / improve the refs retirement package. Funny how we don't hear the owners screaming about the bad job the refs are doing

You would think that if this continues to effect outcomes of games they would be screaming, I just am afraid this could end up having major implications twords the end of the season and that's why I'm shocked that owners are so ho hum about it.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:35 AM   #30
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...ckup-officials


NFL, NFLRA come to agreement on issue of backup officials

By Albert Breer
Reporter, NFL.com and NFL Network
Published: Sept. 26, 2012 at 09:24 a.m. Updated: Sept. 26, 2012 at 11:23 a.m. 182

The NFL and NFL Referees Association negotiated through Tuesday from 8:30 a.m. until 2 a.m. Wednesday, according to sources briefed on both sides' positions, and at least one breakthrough resulted.

The league and referees have agreed to create a developmental program as a compromise to the NFL's demand for the addition of 21 officials to the current contingent of 121 NFLRA members, per an NFLRA source. The pool of money for the existing officials also will remain the same.

During Tuesday's talks, the owners who have shown no inclination to budge on the referees' benefits issues became involved on a more detailed level in the negotiations, per an NFL source. The federal mediator is said to have kept things on track.

The developmental officials will be mentored by the existing crews and will be assigned to work with them during the week. The developmental officials will not be NFLRA members, will not work games, and will not be eligible to be subbed in initially.

But eventually, as they improve and reach the standards to be NFL officials, they will be considered for NFLRA membership. As that happens, the financial pool for officials will be adjusted accordingly.

Sources from both sides of the negotiations said the two parties agreed it was important for there to be more qualified officials available to the league, particularly for cases during which other officials cannot work due to circumstances outside of football (i.e. personal reasons or injury).

The issue of retirement plans for the referees still has yet to be solved. The NFL also involved benefits experts in Tuesday's talks, per a league source. An NFLRA source said the referees came further off their position Tuesday.

Previously, where owners were looking for all officials to go to a 401(k), the NFLRA offered to have all new officials on a 401(k) and existing NFLRA members grandfathered in under the old pension.

The NFLRA on Tuesday offered a shorter-term grandfathering, but the owners declined, according to an NFLRA source.

The owners are dug in, reluctant to make any further compromise, according to a league source.

In exchange for the shorter-term grandfathering, the officials also sought a "ratification bonus" to make up for the money lost this season, and to ensure the owners wouldn't profit from the lockout.

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