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Old 04-06-2012, 10:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Claremonster View Post
If the budget were to be balanced, there'd have to be cuts in everything - social programs, grants and handouts to activist groups, the military, Social Security Medicare, etc... and, frankly getting re-elected is far more important than to even consider touching anything that some special interest group is fond of.

Exactly.......but "special interest groups" make up a significant portion of the population. If you account for the "like-minded" as well, they establish a dangerous majority.

Sadly, I don't feel that the American mob has the intelligence nor the will to do the right thing so it's going to end up being the job of our creditors who will stop lending us money (and hopefully sooner rather than later).
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:22 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by RI Pats Fan View Post
Of course they can balance it, but if they ever tried they'd all be out of jobs.
This problem starts and ends with the mob. If the mob truly wanted a balanced budget, then we'd have one.

Again,....don't touch my bread or circus. :yoda:
For the record, I'm not trying to pass the buck here.

I know who elects these people. And we have no one to blame but ourselves when we keep re-electing the same people and continue to get the same results.

As clare mentioned though, you aren't going to get reelected on a platform of taking away people's shit*. (even if it's the financially responsible action)


*Obviously this is a metephor
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:28 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by RI Pats Fan View Post
Exactly.......but "special interest groups" make up a significant portion of the population. If you account for the "like-minded" as well, they establish a dangerous majority.

Sadly, I don't feel that the American mob has the intelligence nor the will to do the right thing so it's going to end up being the job of our creditors who will stop lending us money (and hopefully sooner rather than later).
So what's the answer?

I mean it's not like this hasn't happened before. So do you just cut the mob out of the electoral process? Do we just appoint a dictator and hope he/she is the benign sort? The Romans basically did that and it worked out fairly well at first. Of course eventually you trade an Augustus for a Nero or a Caligula and power ends up doing what power does (Opressing the weak)

You're never going to be able to expect ordinary citizens to do anything other than what they've done for centuries. That's human nature and it's not changing.

But I'm not sure the alternative is all that much better either.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:33 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
So what's the answer?

I mean it's not like this hasn't happened before. So do you just cut the mob out of the electoral process? Do we just appoint a dictator and hope he/she is the benign sort? The Romans basically did that and it worked out fairly well at first. Of course eventually you trade an Augustus for a Nero or a Caligula and power ends up doing what power does (Opressing the weak)

You're never going to be able to expect ordinary citizens to do anything other than what they've done for centuries. That's human nature and it's not changing.

But I'm not sure the alternative is all that much better either.

I'm not sure what the ordinary citizen is expected to do when they are kept busy working to keep their heads above water, and then get to choose the lesser of the evails presented to us in the elections.
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Old 04-06-2012, 11:38 AM   #50
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I'm not sure what the ordinary citizen is expected to do when they are kept busy working to keep their heads above water, and then get to choose the lesser of the evails presented to us in the elections.
Why do we have to choose between the lesser or two evils?

Because those are the people who are the most "electable" because they tell people what they want to hear.

If we as a people made it clear we wouldn't vote for anyone who did "x" and backed it up on election day, I bet you'd start seeing candidates who no longer do "x."

But we don't do that. We gnash our teeth and wring our hands about the budget but in the end we keep sending the same people back who keep doing the same things. Look at incombent re-election rates if you don't believe me.

And we are not the only ones to do this. At some point most democracies* go through exactly what we're doing now. It's the ebb and flow of the world and it isn't changing anytime soon.

*democracy in the general sense, not the strict definition of democracy.
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Old 04-06-2012, 12:35 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
For the record, I'm not trying to pass the buck here.

I know who elects these people. And we have no one to blame but ourselves when we keep re-electing the same people and continue to get the same results.

As clare mentioned though, you aren't going to get reelected on a platform of taking away people's shit*. (even if it's the financially responsible action)


*Obviously this is a metephor
When you vote, you're choices have been selected for you, already.

It really doesn't matter whether you vote or not, or who you vote for.

Witness the Ron Paul scenario.

Anyone that is not property of the machine is DOA.

The selection process assures that your choice is made for you.

They choose the make and model...you're just voting on the paint.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
When you vote, you're choices have been selected for you, already.

It really doesn't matter whether you vote or not, or who you vote for.

Witness the Ron Paul scenario.

Anyone that is not property of the machine is DOA.

The selection process assures that your choice is made for you.

They choose the make and model...you're just voting on the paint.

Ron Paul is where he is because:

A.) He's a horrible speaker and debater with very little charisma

B.) His message is about sacrifice, fiscal discipline, and personal responsibility/freedom and very few people want anything to do with that.


The choices haven't been selected for us. Ron Paul could easily run as an independent but he would still lose.....badly.
The people ain't buying what Ron Paul is selling.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:38 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by RI Pats Fan View Post
Ron Paul is where he is because:

A.) He's a horrible speaker and debater with very little charisma

B.) His message is about sacrifice, fiscal discipline, and personal responsibility/freedom and very few people want anything to do with that.


The choices haven't been selected for us. Ron Paul could easily run as an independent but he would still lose.....badly.
The people ain't buying what Ron Paul is selling.
You're overlooking how his name was removed from polls, he got no airtime in the media, and he was uninvited to the party events, like CPAC.

No candidate can win unless they have the money and the media blessings.....and that means an endless parade of RINOS and Fascists.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:38 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
So what's the answer?

I mean it's not like this hasn't happened before. So do you just cut the mob out of the electoral process? Do we just appoint a dictator and hope he/she is the benign sort? The Romans basically did that and it worked out fairly well at first. Of course eventually you trade an Augustus for a Nero or a Caligula and power ends up doing what power does (Opressing the weak)

You're never going to be able to expect ordinary citizens to do anything other than what they've done for centuries. That's human nature and it's not changing.

But I'm not sure the alternative is all that much better either.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

-Tytler/Tocqueville/unknown
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
You're overlooking how his name was removed from polls, he got no airtime in the media, and he was uninvited to the party events, like CPAC.

No candidate can win unless they have the money and the media blessings.....and that means an endless parade of RINOS and Fascists.
This name recognition poll was taken before the campaign got into the swing in August of last year:

Name Recognition
  • Sarah Palin 97%
  • Rudy Giuliani 91%
  • Mitt Romney 86%
  • Newt Gingrich 85%
  • Michele Bachmann 83%
  • Ron Paul 78%
  • Rick Perry 67%
  • Rick Santorum 51%
  • Herman Cain 47%
  • Jon Huntsman 40%
http://race42012.com/2011/08/23/poll...bility-survey/

Rick Santorum is now in second place and Ron Paul is a distant fourth.
Santorum was so far off the middle of the stage on debates that he almost was an afterthought.
People know Ron Paul and his message and I know you want to believe that they don't know it but they do know it. They simply just don't want anything to do with it.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:46 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by RI Pats Fan View Post
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

-Tytler/Tocqueville/unknown
I think I've heard Thomas Jefferson say something to that effect as well. (I've heard that before by the way. It's sadly very true)
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
So what's the answer?

I mean it's not like this hasn't happened before. So do you just cut the mob out of the electoral process? Do we just appoint a dictator and hope he/she is the benign sort? The Romans basically did that and it worked out fairly well at first. Of course eventually you trade an Augustus for a Nero or a Caligula and power ends up doing what power does (Opressing the weak)

You're never going to be able to expect ordinary citizens to do anything other than what they've done for centuries. That's human nature and it's not changing.

But I'm not sure the alternative is all that much better either.
Simple.

You dilute the centralized power as much as possible.

The less power it has, the less damage can be done.

It really doesn't make a damn bit of difference what sort of government you have in the long run.

The only thing that counts is how much power it has. That's the chum in the water.

Democracy, Republic, Monarchy, whatever....the dynamics of power and money are unaffected by the form of government is plays out in.

The form of government is just window dressing. A monarchy is no more or less corrupt and damaging than a democracy.

It's only how concentrated the power is that matters.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 04-06-2012, 03:50 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by RI Pats Fan View Post
This name recognition poll was taken before the campaign got into the swing in August of last year:

Name Recognition
  • Sarah Palin 97%
  • Rudy Giuliani 91%
  • Mitt Romney 86%
  • Newt Gingrich 85%
  • Michele Bachmann 83%
  • Ron Paul 78%
  • Rick Perry 67%
  • Rick Santorum 51%
  • Herman Cain 47%
  • Jon Huntsman 40%
http://race42012.com/2011/08/23/poll...bility-survey/

Rick Santorum is now in second place and Ron Paul is a distant fourth.
Santorum was so far off the middle of the stage on debates that he almost was an afterthought.
People know Ron Paul and his message and I know you want to believe that they don't know it but they do know it. They simply just don't want anything to do with it.
Why do you suppose that is?

Because people are programmed to accept certain ideas, and anything outside of that box is kooky.

This is why Europe is going to hell in a handbasket, and people here think we are in recovery.

They are programmed for ignorance.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Gun Free zones are Safe Spaces for active shooters.

Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 04-06-2012, 03:52 PM   #59
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Simple.

You dilute the centralized power as much as possible.

The less power it has, the less damage can be done.

It really doesn't make a damn bit of difference what sort of government you have in the long run.

The only thing that counts is how much power it has. That's the chum in the water.

Democracy, Republic, Monarchy, whatever....the dynamics of power and money are unaffected by the form of government is plays out in.

The form of government is just window dressing. A monarchy is no more or less corrupt and damaging than a democracy.

It's only how concentrated the power is that matters.


The people will never accept a small federal government. They want their checks.
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:53 PM   #60
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Simple.

You dilute the centralized power as much as possible.
The less power it has, the less damage can be done.

It really doesn't make a damn bit of difference what sort of government you have in the long run.

The only thing that counts is how much power it has. That's the chum in the water.

Democracy, Republic, Monarchy, whatever....the dynamics of power and money are unaffected by the form of government is plays out in.

The form of government is just window dressing. A monarchy is no more or less corrupt and damaging than a democracy.

It's only how concentrated the power is that matters.
I like that idea. So what we need is to come up with a governing document, we'll call it "The Constitution", and in it we'll limit the power that the central government is allowed to have; those powers will be limited in scope, specific, and enumerated, and we'll reserve everything else for the states and the people.

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