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Old 04-04-2012, 12:21 PM   #16
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Human history suggests otherwise.

Yeah, there are outliers, but by and large we have to **** something up before we learn our lessons, and even then we rarely learn (exhibit A is our current Middle East Boondoggles)

I didn't say that most people didn't gain wisdom through suffering. I just said that it wasn't necessary. We can gain wisdom from studying the past and the mistakes of others without experiencing them ourselves.
Again, this takes humility, patience, and a solid work ethic.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:23 PM   #17
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It's about Bread and Circus. Making all the necessary changes in spending and our currency will greatly affect both their bread and circus.....today.

That's all people care about....today......bread....circus. Do I have my house? Do I have my car/truck? Do I have my football? Do I have my beer?
If the answer is "yes" then that's all most people care about and you're not going to convince them to relinquish their "bread and circus" without a fight.
This was the reason that the upper Roman classes called people like this...."the mob". Things are no different today except that "the mob" ultimately controls the purse strings as it keeps electing "representatives" who will give them their bread and circus (while taking a little for themselves and their "friends"...but hey, that's ok).

So keep sounding the alarm.....I do the same. But I have zero expectation that people will listen until they are forced to listen.
Well, on this topic you and I are of one mind.

The real shame of it is......if people just looked around they would see the storm that is coming....it is happening all over Europe, and for some reason people just don't think it will cross the Atlantic.

It's like those people who watch the tsunami coming in, and not realizing until too late just how big the wave really is.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:56 PM   #18
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Well, on this topic you and I are of one mind.

The real shame of it is......if people just looked around they would see the storm that is coming....it is happening all over Europe, and for some reason people just don't think it will cross the Atlantic.

It's like those people who watch the tsunami coming in, and not realizing until too late just how big the wave really is.

It must feel good to know that you're right for a change RavenBHee

Oh, they see it....just like the Romans saw the barbarian hordes knocking at their doors. And how did the mob react.....let the government deal with it, just give me more bread and circuses.

And that's exactly what they did.....they abdicated their social responsibility and demanded more distractions as Juvenal lamented on in his Satires.
As the social ills grew worse and worse, the mob demanded more and more vile displays of sex and violence (sound familiar?) rather than deal with these problems with humility and patience.

But we are worse then the Romans because our bread is Steak and our circuses are 24/7.

Our entitlement programs don't just meet the barest of needs like the Roman "annona" dole , they create a "standard of living" which is unmerited and not sustainable.
So today's mob isn't content with bread......they demand steak as well.

Our circus is right in our living room or on our desktops (or laps) feeding us sex and violence 24/7....keeping us entertained and titillated.
Whether it be porn or "Mixed Martial Arts" or reality shows, they keep us from having to deal with reality.

Oh....they know it's coming. They would just rather drink and be merry until the big wave comes ashore.

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Old 04-04-2012, 01:13 PM   #19
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:15 PM   #20
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I'm usually not a big fan of Wiki but for a condensed synopsis I thought that this was decent and relevant:

In 58 BC, the patrician-turned-plebeian Clodius Pulcher advanced a popularist political agenda in his bid for the tribunate by offering free grain for the poor. The expense was considerable, and Julius Caesar later reformed the dole. Augustus considered abolishing it altogether, but instead reduced the number of the recipients to 200,000, and perhaps later 150,000.
Later emperors all used free or greatly subsidized grain to keep the populace fed. The political use of the grain supply along with gladiatorial games and other entertainments gave rise to the saying "Bread and circuses". As the empire continued, the annona became more complex. During the reign of Septimius Severus, olive oil was added to the distribution, and during that of Aurelian, pork and wine.
With the devaluation of currency in the course of the third century, the army was paid in rationed supplies (annonae) as well as in specie from the later third century, through a cumbrous administration of collection and redistribution. The role of the state in distributing the annona remained a central feature of its unity and power: "the cessation of this state function in the fifth century was a major factor leading to economic fragmentation, as was the end of the grain requisition for the city of Rome". Averil Cameron notes.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_s...e_city_of_Rome
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:02 PM   #21
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #22
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It must feel good to know that you're right for a change RavenBHee

Oh, they see it....just like the Romans saw the barbarian hordes knocking at their doors. And how did the mob react.....let the government deal with it, just give me more bread and circuses.

And that's exactly what they did.....they abdicated their social responsibility and demanded more distractions as Juvenal lamented on in his Satires.
As the social ills grew worse and worse, the mob demanded more and more vile displays of sex and violence (sound familiar?) rather than deal with these problems with humility and patience.

But we are worse then the Romans because our bread is Steak and our circuses are 24/7.

Our entitlement programs don't just meet the barest of needs like the Roman "annona" dole , they create a "standard of living" which is unmerited and not sustainable.
So today's mob isn't content with bread......they demand steak as well.

Our circus is right in our living room or on our desktops (or laps) feeding us sex and violence 24/7....keeping us entertained and titillated.
Whether it be porn or "Mixed Martial Arts" or reality shows, they keep us from having to deal with reality.

Oh....they know it's coming. They would just rather drink and be merry until the big wave comes ashore.
So what are the solutions? Are there any Politicians out there with ground breaking ideas? Is there ANYONE at all?People love talking about the "problems" that we face , but so few have actual solutions.

It seems ye have little faith in the general American public, but in War times we have pulled together, but then you knew clearly what it was you were up against. Speak German or Japanese and all that gos with it, or pull together for America.

NOW its often your OWN GOVT that is hurting you.Just curious, I guess Chrysler paid back their "Bailout" $$$, what did our GOVT do with it? Did they apply it towards the debt? I only ask because it reminds me of when someone let me use their credit card, and I paid them back in cash a few weeks later, only they decided to spend that $ rather than re-applying it towards the credit card....not long after they ended up filing for bankruptcy.

Sadly our own GOVT is setting the ultimate BAD example.

I just found this interesting article about Chryslers supposed loan payback.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politi...ay-back/145552
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:14 PM   #23
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So what are the solutions? Are there any Politicians out there with ground breaking ideas? Is there ANYONE at all?People love talking about the "problems" that we face , but so few have actual solutions.

It seems ye have little faith in the general American public, but in War times we have pulled together, but then you knew clearly what it was you were up against. Speak German or Japanese and all that gos with it, or pull together for America.

NOW its often your OWN GOVT that is hurting you.Just curious, I guess Chrysler paid back their "Bailout" $$$, what did our GOVT do with it? Did they apply it towards the debt? I only ask because it reminds me of when someone let me use their credit card, and I paid them back in cash a few weeks later, only they decided to spend that $ rather than re-applying it towards the credit card....not long after they ended up filing for bankruptcy.

Sadly our own GOVT is setting the ultimate BAD example.

I just found this interesting article about Chryslers supposed loan payback.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politi...ay-back/145552
We came "together" in wartime because it was in our entire self interest to do so.
We don't need ground breaking ideas just the desire to do what's best for the common good.
The bottom line is that we need to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Defense.....the Big 3.
That's where the spending is currently happening and where most of the unfunded future liabilities happen to be.

Now try convincing the Mob that this needs to happen....good luck.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:08 PM   #24
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We came "together" in wartime because it was in our entire self interest to do so.
We don't need ground breaking ideas just the desire to do what's best for the common good.
The bottom line is that we need to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Defense.....the Big 3.
That's where the spending is currently happening and where most of the unfunded future liabilities happen to be.

Now try convincing the Mob that this needs to happen....good luck.
If they ever cut Social Security, that will get the Mob going, especially with the Baby Boomers.Nothing like paying into something your whole work life aqnd then having it taken away.

And also if they did, they would have to have a good alternative way for Americans to afford retirement, cause most are not good at saving.Would be allot more Homeless people, or so it seems.

I agree about the other, and how in the hell they didnt get rid of all the NASA money sooner is a real head scratcher.How much was wasted over the last how many decades on that?

Takw away all those nifty retirement bennys our wonderful GOVT officials keep raking in as well, that aint no chump change.
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Old 04-04-2012, 09:35 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by RI Pats Fan View Post
We came "together" in wartime because it was in our entire self interest to do so.
We don't need ground breaking ideas just the desire to do what's best for the common good.
The bottom line is that we need to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Defense.....the Big 3.
That's where the spending is currently happening and where most of the unfunded future liabilities happen to be.

Now try convincing the Mob that this needs to happen....good luck.
So I know this is a popular topic, but are you actually suggesting taking social security away after I've paid nearly a half million dollars over my career into it so I could get some of it back in my old age? And with health insurance being as outrageous as they are, you think Medicare should be cut for the elderly, when they're on fixed incomes and many can barely get by now, let alone have to figure out a way to pay for their medications and doctors' appointments? Oh, but wait, the fixed income won't be there either because you want to cut their SS payments.

Sorry, but if you want to see massive acts of violence and homicide, then, yes, take away what we've paid into our whole lives. That will work.
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:29 PM   #26
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If they ever cut Social Security, that will get the Mob going, especially with the Baby Boomers.Nothing like paying into something your whole work life aqnd then having it taken away.

And also if they did, they would have to have a good alternative way for Americans to afford retirement, cause most are not good at saving.Would be allot more Homeless people, or so it seems.

I agree about the other, and how in the hell they didnt get rid of all the NASA money sooner is a real head scratcher.How much was wasted over the last how many decades on that?

Takw away all those nifty retirement bennys our wonderful GOVT officials keep raking in as well, that aint no chump change.

That's why I said, good luck getting the mob to agree.

But they should agrree because whether they like it or not , it's going to happen.

NASA spending totals $18 Billion or .5% of the annual budget .....a drop in the bucket. Social Security, Defense, Medicare, and Medicaid total $2.257 Trillion or 62% of the national budget.

So we spend $3.6 Trillion and we collect $2.3 Trillion leaving a deficit of about $1.3 Trillion that needs to be borrowed.

So where would you cut? The .5% of the budget of NASA (now you only have $1.282 Trillion to go) or would u cut from the part of the budget that represents almost 2/3 of the total pie of spending?
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Old 04-05-2012, 05:58 AM   #27
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So I know this is a popular topic, but are you actually suggesting taking social security away after I've paid nearly a half million dollars over my career into it so I could get some of it back in my old age? And with health insurance being as outrageous as they are, you think Medicare should be cut for the elderly, when they're on fixed incomes and many can barely get by now, let alone have to figure out a way to pay for their medications and doctors' appointments? Oh, but wait, the fixed income won't be there either because you want to cut their SS payments.

Sorry, but if you want to see massive acts of violence and homicide, then, yes, take away what we've paid into our whole lives. That will work.
It's not a matter of "should".

It's a matter of not having the money to pay for it.

It's a matter of going bankrupt as a nation, just as Greece has.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Who would Jesus bomb?

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Old 04-05-2012, 12:01 PM   #28
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So I know this is a popular topic, but are you actually suggesting taking social security away after I've paid nearly a half million dollars over my career into it so I could get some of it back in my old age? And with health insurance being as outrageous as they are, you think Medicare should be cut for the elderly, when they're on fixed incomes and many can barely get by now, let alone have to figure out a way to pay for their medications and doctors' appointments? Oh, but wait, the fixed income won't be there either because you want to cut their SS payments.

Sorry, but if you want to see massive acts of violence and homicide, then, yes, take away what we've paid into our whole lives. That will work.
If it makes you feel any better Lisa, my generation isn't going to have any of those benefits.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:20 PM   #29
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So I know this is a popular topic, but are you actually suggesting taking social security away after I've paid nearly a half million dollars over my career into it so I could get some of it back in my old age? And with health insurance being as outrageous as they are, you think Medicare should be cut for the elderly, when they're on fixed incomes and many can barely get by now, let alone have to figure out a way to pay for their medications and doctors' appointments? Oh, but wait, the fixed income won't be there either because you want to cut their SS payments.

Sorry, but if you want to see massive acts of violence and homicide, then, yes, take away what we've paid into our whole lives. That will work.
Well, someone's getting the debt dumped on them. Are you content with dumping it on your kids? Your grandkids?
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:23 PM   #30
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If it makes you feel any better Lisa, my generation isn't going to have any of those benefits.
Lisa may not get to see it either, if it isn't addressed soon. Eventually, and not that long from now, SS/Medicare/etc will be paying out more than teh government takes in total. Then we're all ****ed.
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