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Old 12-23-2017, 07:32 PM   #1
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Jeff Flake on hyperbolic, counterproductive, and potentially dangerous rhetoric



OK, who disagrees with his assessment?

He clearly identifies it as a problem on both sides of the aisle.

He's right.

I double dog dare anyone to claim that their sides claims were justified and the other's were beyond the pale.

The sad fact of our reality today, is that the sound bite meme has taken over just about all debate.

Far too many people no longer try to frame a coherent argument, but simply hurl vitriol against the other side in an effort to "claim the moral high ground".

Enough.

If one is not willing to accept the possibility that the other side just might possibly be motivated by trying to do what they see as "good for America", then perhaps you should consider embracing the following.

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Old 12-23-2017, 07:42 PM   #2
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Nah, the left svcks
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Old 12-24-2017, 08:50 AM   #3
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The problem is this is an extremely effective method of creating in group support so both parties will continue to use it.

Staying in power is more important to those that claim it than effective governance for the sake of effective governance. Since we're more concerned with stopping the existential threat that is the other party than what our own party.isndoing, we're willing to overlook our own shortcomings.

"I mean, the (GOP/DNC) might be bad, but at least they aren't trying to (kill the old/kill the poor.)". Sen Flake argued you can "begin to see how that makes sense.". I'll take it a step further. If you believe the rhetoric that comes out of either party, direct action is not only justified but a moral imperative.

It's not just then political parties that do this. Look at the rhetoric around the black lives/blue lives matter factions. If you believe cops are out hunting black people for sport you're compelled to act out against that injustice. Conversely, if you believe a group of whiney left wing militilants are conspiring to murder police officers at the behest of their globalist masters to destroy the Union...well you are also compelled to act.

Impending doom is an incredibly motivating force, so expect this continue until it's too late to pull it back. It may already be too late.
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:38 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by subroc View Post
Nah, the left svcks
Really.

So no one on the right lives in a glass house?
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Old 12-25-2017, 07:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
Really.

So no one on the right lives in a glass house?

It's my story and i'm stickin' to it.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:41 AM   #6
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Dems are Commies

Reps are Fascists

That's the rhetoric.

Because people don't get motivated by "Dems are trying to make the country better, Reps are trying to make the country better, but they have different ideas about how to accomplish that".
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post


OK, who disagrees with his assessment?

He clearly identifies it as a problem on both sides of the aisle.

He's right.

I double dog dare anyone to claim that their sides claims were justified and the other's were beyond the pale.

The sad fact of our reality today, is that the sound bite meme has taken over just about all debate.

Far too many people no longer try to frame a coherent argument, but simply hurl vitriol against the other side in an effort to "claim the moral high ground".

Enough.

If one is not willing to accept the possibility that the other side just might possibly be motivated by trying to do what they see as "good for America", then perhaps you should consider embracing the following.

So you're telling anyone that doesn't agree with your assessment to simply STFU? That's a great way to engage in dialogue.
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by AkPatsFan View Post
So you're telling anyone that doesn't agree with your assessment to simply STFU? That's a great way to engage in dialogue.
This was your takeaway?

No, that's not at all what is being said here.

If you believe your opponents are evil and attempting to "Destroy America" whether you are a hysterical SJW or the noisiest of Trump apologists, then STFU.

If you think your opponents solutions are incorrect, explain why and offer alternatives.

This is frankly one the the best diagnosis of what's wrong with this country.

I used to be a right leaning voter. Now I am left leaning. I didn't decide to "destroy everything American stands for" and "Piss on real Americans". I frankly decided the parties we identical in practical terms economically and on foreign policy, and that that the issues that Most Republicans were talking about were the ones I disagree with them on.

If you (by which I mean the royal You) believe the political opposition is hopelessly evil and corrupt, you are the problem, and it doesn't matter who you vote for.
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proceeding across a battlefield,
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I am up front to draw the fire.
I look back,
and one of those I was to protect has fallen."

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Old 12-26-2017, 02:33 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by AkPatsFan View Post
So you're telling anyone that doesn't agree with your assessment to simply STFU? That's a great way to engage in dialogue.


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Old 12-26-2017, 04:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AkPatsFan View Post
So you're telling anyone that doesn't agree with your assessment to simply STFU? That's a great way to engage in dialogue.
I guess I wasn't clear.

Darth's response was close to what I meant, but there was a subtle, yet significant, difference.

Darth said:
If you believe your opponents are evil and attempting to "Destroy America" whether you are a hysterical SJW or the noisiest of Trump apologists, then STFU.
I said:
If one is not willing to accept the possibility that the other side just might possibly be motivated by trying to do what they see as "good for America", then perhaps you should consider embracing the following.
Emphasis added.

Darth's statement seems to suggest a more "all or nothing" attitude regarding if the other side is "evil".

Mine is far less embracing. Mine does not preclude one from thinking anyone from the other side has motivation other than what is "good for America". It simply rejects those who insist that 100% of the other side must have a motivation other than what they think is "good for America".

I also point out the aspect of they are advocating what they believe to be "good".

Reasonable people can disagree about the likely outcome of any given policy/decision.

But if one thinks that someone who disagrees actually does agree that your preferred policy is "better" and so can only be arguing against it because of some other motivation is the height of arrogance.

And yes, IMHO, such people should STFU.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
The problem is this is an extremely effective method of creating in group support so both parties will continue to use it.

Staying in power is more important to those that claim it than effective governance for the sake of effective governance. Since we're more concerned with stopping the existential threat that is the other party than what our own party.isndoing, we're willing to overlook our own shortcomings.

"I mean, the (GOP/DNC) might be bad, but at least they aren't trying to (kill the old/kill the poor.)". Sen Flake argued you can "begin to see how that makes sense.". I'll take it a step further. If you believe the rhetoric that comes out of either party, direct action is not only justified but a moral imperative.

It's not just then political parties that do this. Look at the rhetoric around the black lives/blue lives matter factions. If you believe cops are out hunting black people for sport you're compelled to act out against that injustice. Conversely, if you believe a group of whiney left wing militilants are conspiring to murder police officers at the behest of their globalist masters to destroy the Union...well you are also compelled to act.

Impending doom is an incredibly motivating force, so expect this continue until it's too late to pull it back. It may already be too late.
Outstanding post. Agree 100%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 12-27-2017, 11:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
I guess I wasn't clear.

Darth's response was close to what I meant, but there was a subtle, yet significant, difference.

Darth said:
If you believe your opponents are evil and attempting to "Destroy America" whether you are a hysterical SJW or the noisiest of Trump apologists, then STFU.
I said:
If one is not willing to accept the possibility that the other side just might possibly be motivated by trying to do what they see as "good for America", then perhaps you should consider embracing the following.
Emphasis added.

Darth's statement seems to suggest a more "all or nothing" attitude regarding if the other side is "evil".

Mine is far less embracing. Mine does not preclude one from thinking anyone from the other side has motivation other than what is "good for America". It simply rejects those who insist that 100% of the other side must have a motivation other than what they think is "good for America".

I also point out the aspect of they are advocating what they believe to be "good".

Reasonable people can disagree about the likely outcome of any given policy/decision.

But if one thinks that someone who disagrees actually does agree that your preferred policy is "better" and so can only be arguing against it because of some other motivation is the height of arrogance.

And yes, IMHO, such people should STFU.
Unfortunately, I susopect all politicians. I think politicians are far more likely to end up in power positions for nefarious reasons. Something may be a poor choice but the politicians may come up with say, like the old "It's for the Children" or It''s for America". Eaach side trying to find that meme to capture those into the it's good because camp.


Cheers
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonTim View Post
Unfortunately, I susopect all politicians. I think politicians are far more likely to end up in power positions for nefarious reasons. Something may be a poor choice but the politicians may come up with say, like the old "It's for the Children" or It''s for America". Eaach side trying to find that meme to capture those into the it's good because camp.


Cheers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

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Old 01-06-2018, 03:20 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Thanks, Baron. That's just what I meant to say!


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