>
Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards

Home Members List Top Posters Arcade Casino Toolbar
Go Back   Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards > The Razor > Politics and Religion Forum
Mark Forums Read rel="nofollow">Mark Forums Read
Register All Albums FAQDonate Calendar

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-14-2015, 09:53 AM   #31
Baron Samedi
Russian Bot 762X54R
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Framingham
Posts: 28,181
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $469675
My Mood


Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
For clarification, "space" and "time" are the same thing....not two separate things. They are both "spacetime".

Just wanted to clear that up as we go about solving the mystery of God and creation.

At any rate, I will put my 2 cents in, in two points.

1. I am a deist.

If you want to know a writer, you study their writing. If you want to know a painter, you study their paintings. If you want to know a musician, you study their music.
Therefore, if you want to know God, you study the cosmos, his creation.
That is my theory in a nutshell.

2. I do not subscribe to any organized religions on this planet. Neither do I denegrate or disrespect people for their faith in whatever form it takes. First, there is nothing to gain and no profit from it. Second, because such criticisms are often offensive, in the same way calling someone's children ugly is offensive.
I believe that people who attack others' religion or faith are really just displaying their own ugly personal character.
I do not tolerate preaching or criticism from religious zealots, nor atheist zealots.
Atheism is a matter of faith as well, no more and no less than believing in God.

For those atheists who say "prove God exists, there is no scientific evidence", I would remind them and point out that any scientist will tell you that lack of evidence does not disprove existence.

We had zero evidence of atoms until Einstein showed up, yet many people took it on faith that atoms existed. We had zero evidence of the Higgs-Boson yet for many decades the majority believed the Higgs Boson existed.

Scientists now believe in this mysterious stuff called "dark matter" because they found something they cannot explain, yet we have no evidence of it other than an unexplainable stickiness of galaxies that gravity as we know it cannot account for it.

If you think "dark matter" is real, I must ask "Why? Show me proof that it exists, other than just a human crated superstition to explain something we can't understand."

Personally, I believe God does exist, and dark matter does not exist.

I would no more offend or insult the faithful for their God superstition any more than I would offend or insult the scientists for their dark matter superstition, to say nothing of string theory or m-theory.

Lack of evidence does not denote lack of existence. Any truly scientific mind must remain open to the possibility of God, and to the possibility that we are perhaps one of the more stupid species in the universe and simply not capable of knowing or understanding God in any way. Our intelligence has limits. Any sufficiently more advanced intelligence or technology would qualify as God to us.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

Shameless plug for my blog; https://puntyventures.com/
  Baron Samedi is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:00 AM   #32
Baron Samedi
Russian Bot 762X54R
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Framingham
Posts: 28,181
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $469675
My Mood


Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
By the way, to OPT's point.....

Asking "What was before the Big Bang?" is like asking "What is North of the North Pole?" There is no "north" of the north pole...every direction is south. Likewise, there is no "before the Big Bang"", because without time there is no "before" or "after", and without space, there is no place for anything to be, so there is no "what".
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

Shameless plug for my blog; https://puntyventures.com/
  Baron Samedi is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:08 AM   #33
Baron Samedi
Russian Bot 762X54R
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Framingham
Posts: 28,181
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $469675
My Mood


Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein's opinions closely match my own, though not exactly.

And that's what it is, opinion. Neither the faithful nor the atheist know, they are no more and no less than opinions, and should be treated with all the respect opinions are due.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

Shameless plug for my blog; https://puntyventures.com/
  Baron Samedi is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:13 AM   #34
Oswlek
Registered User
 
Oswlek's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In southcarolina's closet
Posts: 16,989
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $308620


Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
You are a very smart guy, Baron, but there are logical fallacies:

Quote:
Atheism is a matter of faith as well, no more and no less than believing in God.
Quote:
if you want to know God, you study the cosmos, his creation.
Quote:
For those atheists who say "prove God exists, there is no scientific evidence", I would remind them and point out that any scientist will tell you that lack of evidence does not disprove existence.
Quote:
We had zero evidence of the Higgs-Boson yet for many decades the majority believed the Higgs Boson existed.
If you are interested in knowing why these are fallacies, I'd be happy to elaborate.

As for the crux of your point, I hold nothing against anyone believing just about anything. The problem is when those beliefs manifest themselves as actions, such as groups trying to force schools to teach nonsense in science classes, bigoted legislation or all the religion inspired terrorism in the middle east.

Your right to believe what you want is sacred, your ability to project those beliefs is not. As such, it is not only useful, it is our duty to question beliefs held for purely religious reasons if people are basing communal decisions on them.
__________________
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
  Oswlek is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:16 AM   #35
Oswlek
Registered User
 
Oswlek's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In southcarolina's closet
Posts: 16,989
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $308620


Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
By the way, to OPT's point.....

Asking "What was before the Big Bang?" is like asking "What is North of the North Pole?" There is no "north" of the north pole...every direction is south. Likewise, there is no "before the Big Bang"", because without time there is no "before" or "after", and without space, there is no place for anything to be, so there is no "what".
Not quite. It is entirely possible that our spacetime was created at the moment of the Big Bang, but another form of spacetime preceded it. As OPT says, it is most likely that scientific inquiry stops there, but that doesn't mean everything else does as well.
__________________
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
  Oswlek is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:41 AM   #36
Baron Samedi
Russian Bot 762X54R
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Framingham
Posts: 28,181
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $469675
My Mood


Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
You are a very smart guy, Baron, but there are logical fallacies:









If you are interested in knowing why these are fallacies, I'd be happy to elaborate.

As for the crux of your point, I hold nothing against anyone believing just about anything. The problem is when those beliefs manifest themselves as actions, such as groups trying to force schools to teach nonsense in science classes, bigoted legislation or all the religion inspired terrorism in the middle east.

Your right to believe what you want is sacred, your ability to project those beliefs is not. As such, it is not only useful, it is our duty to question beliefs held for purely religious reasons if people are basing communal decisions on them.
I would be interested in elaboration, if you have the time.

I would disagree with a couple of your points in this post, though I do not want to sidetrack.....

First, I believe that schools ought to be able to teach most anything they want, if it is supported by the local community. If they're not your kids, it's not your business. That's my take, anyway. If the community wants to teach creationism in the schools, it's their business. I call it "tolerance" to allow people to live they way they want to live, and teach their kids what they want to teach their kids.

Second, you cannot have centrally planned and dictated education without trampling on the the rights of families all over the country to raise their kids as they see fit....this is what the Founders called the "Tyranny of the Majority", over the rights of the minority.

Third, religion generally is innocent of all the lives it has cost. It's just an often used vehicle for governments to inspire the people to kill and die and destroy for political agendas. Today "for democracy and freedom" is just a better tool to use than "for God and Christianity". Religion is no more responsible for the millions of deaths caused in it's name any more than democracy is responsible for the millions of deaths caused in it's name.

The only 3 causes of these deaths are power, profits, and politics.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

Shameless plug for my blog; https://puntyventures.com/
  Baron Samedi is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 10:44 AM   #37
Darth Despot
Not a real 'Merican - apparently
 
Darth Despot's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2005
Location: Upgraded to Probable
Posts: 20,000
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $436775
My Mood


Darth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Darth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
If one were to schedule a debate between one group of people speaking Spanish and another group speaking Mandarin it would be similar in result to this one.

In the mind of the "scientist" if one makes a case for God, the burden of "proof" falls on the "believer". Yet to the believer, faith does not require "proof", in fact faith belies proof.

The debate is fruitless, each side walks away claiming victory but no one is convinced of anything, not on either side, nor in the middle, to the undecided.

On a personal level I my beliefs are close enough to Baron's that we could start a new religion, but I think for a different reason. I don't find the divine by looking outward, I find it very deep within. Science can't explain why I am moved by a painting or a piece of music I've never heard before. I sense something that connects us, I can't define it, I surely haven't given it a personality, but I feel it's there.
__________________
"An image haunts me:
proceeding across a battlefield,
my father now dead,
I am up front to draw the fire.
I look back,
and one of those I was to protect has fallen."

Nicholas Wolterstorff, Lament for a Son (1987)
  Darth Despot is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:03 AM   #38
O_P_T
Why Be Normal
 
O_P_T's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Windsor, CT
Posts: 20,979
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $828875
My Mood


O_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power poster
O_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power posterO_P_T is a power poster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
I appreciate the lesson, OPT, but I'm not sure how it differs from what I wrote. My point was that we have no way of knowing what or if anything preceded the Big Bang, which appears to be the primary theme of your post.

Even if there is a distinction I'm not grasping, I don't think it isn't a necessary one to make for the proof rebuttals I plan on delving into later.
I guess I wasn't clear.

It is not the case that we 'don't" know about what was "before" the Big Bang, but that we can't know, at least in the normal scientific sense.

By definition, what ever was "before" is outside of our Universe, so any attempt at understanding must, by definition, be a matter of "faith".

Yet this doesn't stop cosmologists from putting forth theories about how "creation" occurred.

From a strict intellectual structure standpoint, there is absolutely no difference in someone proposing a "theory of God" and a cosmologist proposing an origin of the Universe.

Both are postulating items that exist outside of our actual Universe that affect our Universe.

this doesn't mean that one must accept the argument of either party, simply that they are making the same type of argument.

If the use of "faith" reflects negatively on an argument for God, then it reflects equally poorly on Cosmology.
__________________
I AM PATRIOTS

"Some day I want to see them raise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl, "Jesus Christ, it's the Goddamned Patriots again and that son-of-a-f*cking-bitch Belichick".
Paraphrasing George S. Patton
  O_P_T is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:06 AM   #39
Oswlek
Registered User
 
Oswlek's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In southcarolina's closet
Posts: 16,989
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $308620


Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Oswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumOswlek should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
If the use of "faith" reflects negatively on an argument for God, then it reflects equally poorly on Cosmology.
True, but only with regard to that specific hypothesis. Everything from the BB onward stands on far more solid ground.
__________________
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan
  Oswlek is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:18 AM   #40
Baron Samedi
Russian Bot 762X54R
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Framingham
Posts: 28,181
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $469675
My Mood


Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
On a personal level I my beliefs are close enough to Baron's that we could start a new religion, but I think for a different reason. I don't find the divine by looking outward, I find it very deep within. Science can't explain why I am moved by a painting or a piece of music I've never heard before. I sense something that connects us, I can't define it, I surely haven't given it a personality, but I feel it's there.
My version of God can be summed up similarly to this....

We are a small part of a larger thing that is God, just as a single cell in your liver is part of a larger organism called Darth Despot.

Darth Despot is only aware of that cell in the vaguest, most abstract way, yet the cell is a part of DD.

Likewise, the cell is a living organism in itself, and yet is a part of something greater, something that it cannot fathom, nor possibly understand or know in it's entirety...though the cell, if it were self aware, can study other cells nearby, and the organ of which it is a part, and even surmise that the organ has functions and does things.

In that sense, we are a part of a greater thing, seeking to understand that greater thing, and our own place.

The difference being, I'm not sure that the greater thing is itself self aware as we understand it.

As Carl Sagan said, "We are the cosmos seeking to understand itself."

On a smaller scale, me, as a person, is simply a part of a much larger system...a climate system, an ecological system...part of a system of repeating patterns over time, evolving as it goes. The chemicals in my body have a long history on earth as they are just recycled parts of dinosaurs, fish, ferns, and other random creatures that lived, died, decayed, consumed by bacteria, consumed by larger things, and larger things, until they were consumed by a human being trying to build another human being in gestation, and stuck those chemicals back together in a new form.

Am I special? Not in any real way. I am special to me and a few other unremarkable, unspecial parts of the machine.

That is the one dynamic of the Baron Samedi religion....any theory, about anything, that results in the conclusion that you are special, is most certainly wrong.

There is my religion. No better or worse than any other, I guess. I could be wrong, I could be right.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

Shameless plug for my blog; https://puntyventures.com/
  Baron Samedi is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:27 AM   #41
No.1jag
#STEALTHESHOW
 
No.1jag's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 5,728
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $1250
My Mood


No.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets it
No.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets itNo.1jag gets it
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Jeremy Irons is Jesus now?
  No.1jag is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:38 AM   #42
tehmackdaddy
post tenebras lux
 
tehmackdaddy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: IN the world, but not OF the world
Posts: 18,635
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $534791
My Mood


tehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that good
tehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
By the way, to OPT's point.....

Asking "What was before the Big Bang?" is like asking "What is North of the North Pole?" There is no "north" of the north pole...every direction is south. Likewise, there is no "before the Big Bang"", because without time there is no "before" or "after", and without space, there is no place for anything to be, so there is no "what".
Within the bounds of our universe, yes. But we are forced to ask the question, how can something be created out of nothing?

1) We all agree that something (this universe) exists.
2) Nothing cannot create something (by definition)
3) Therefore something must have existed prior to OUR something (this universe) to cause it to come into existence.

I am not claiming this proves the existence of the Christian God, just that nothing - the absence of absolutely anything - cannot create something.

So we are left with the argument that either the universe has always existed, or someONE or someTHING created it/caused it into existence. Scientific evidence currently tells us that the universe has not always existed. That there is a finite amount of energy contained within it that will eventually die out. Therefore, we can discard the notion that the universe has always existed because a finite amount of energy cannot sustain the universe throughout eternity.

Furthermore, science currently agrees that the universe is expanding out from a single point from which our universe came into existence via "The Big Bang".

So we understand that the contained universe we live in has a starting point (or birth), is expanding, and will eventually run out of usable energy and die out. It is therefore not eternal.

Which leaves us with the idea that someTHING or someONE existed prior to our universe to cause it into existence.

Back to Hawking for a moment: he argues that gravity itself is enough for a universe to create itself, but again, he has made a logical error. Gravity itself IS something. Something is not nothing and the assertion that gravity created itself is illogical.
__________________
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

-MLK Jr.
  tehmackdaddy is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:40 AM   #43
anderson
Awfully Cavalier
 
anderson's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dappertutto, come un Capo
Posts: 28,364
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $631110
My Mood


anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
Within the bounds of our universe, yes. But we are forced to ask the question, how can something be created out of nothing?

1) We all agree that something (this universe) exists.
2) Nothing cannot create something (by definition)
3) Therefore something must have existed prior to OUR something (this universe) to cause it to come into existence.

I am not claiming this proves the existence of the Christian God, just that nothing - the absence of absolutely anything - cannot create something.

So we are left with the argument that either the universe has always existed, or someONE or someTHING created it/caused it into existence. Scientific evidence currently tells us that the universe has not always existed. That there is a finite amount of energy contained within it that will eventually die out. Therefore, we can discard the notion that the universe has always existed because a finite amount of energy cannot sustain the universe throughout eternity.

Furthermore, science currently agrees that the universe is expanding out from a single point from which our universe came into existence via "The Big Bang".

So we understand that the contained universe we live in has a starting point (or birth), is expanding, and will eventually run out of usable energy and die out. It is therefore not eternal.

Which leaves us with the idea that someTHING or someONE existed prior to our universe to cause it into existence.

Back to Hawking for a moment: he argues that gravity itself is enough for a universe to create itself, but again, he has made a logical error. Gravity itself IS something. Something is not nothing and the assertion that gravity created itself is illogical.
To be sure this is not something we can state with authority.
__________________
<iframe width="460" height="166" scrolling="no" frameborder="no" src="https://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/112763180&color=1b00ff&auto_play=false&show_artwork=false">
</iframe>
  anderson is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 11:51 AM   #44
tehmackdaddy
post tenebras lux
 
tehmackdaddy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: IN the world, but not OF the world
Posts: 18,635
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $534791
My Mood


tehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that good
tehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that goodtehmackdaddy should plot to take over the world, they're that good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
My version of God can be summed up similarly to this....

We are a small part of a larger thing that is God, just as a single cell in your liver is part of a larger organism called Darth Despot.

Darth Despot is only aware of that cell in the vaguest, most abstract way, yet the cell is a part of DD.

Likewise, the cell is a living organism in itself, and yet is a part of something greater, something that it cannot fathom, nor possibly understand or know in it's entirety...though the cell, if it were self aware, can study other cells nearby, and the organ of which it is a part, and even surmise that the organ has functions and does things.

In that sense, we are a part of a greater thing, seeking to understand that greater thing, and our own place.

The difference being, I'm not sure that the greater thing is itself self aware as we understand it.

As Carl Sagan said, "We are the cosmos seeking to understand itself."

On a smaller scale, me, as a person, is simply a part of a much larger system...a climate system, an ecological system...part of a system of repeating patterns over time, evolving as it goes. The chemicals in my body have a long history on earth as they are just recycled parts of dinosaurs, fish, ferns, and other random creatures that lived, died, decayed, consumed by bacteria, consumed by larger things, and larger things, until they were consumed by a human being trying to build another human being in gestation, and stuck those chemicals back together in a new form.

Am I special? Not in any real way. I am special to me and a few other unremarkable, unspecial parts of the machine.

That is the one dynamic of the Baron Samedi religion....any theory, about anything, that results in the conclusion that you are special, is most certainly wrong.

There is my religion. No better or worse than any other, I guess. I could be wrong, I could be right.
In many respects you are describing the church as the body and Christ as the Head of the church.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 "Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. <sup class="versenum"> </sup>For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body....<sup class="versenum"> </sup>Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many."

Romans 12:4-5, 27 "For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others...<sup class="versenum"> </sup>Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it."
__________________
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

-MLK Jr.
  tehmackdaddy is offline Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2015, 12:08 PM   #45
Baron Samedi
Russian Bot 762X54R
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Framingham
Posts: 28,181
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $469675
My Mood


Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Baron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousyBaron Samedi makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Quote:
Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
Within the bounds of our universe, yes. But we are forced to ask the question, how can something be created out of nothing?

1) We all agree that something (this universe) exists.
2) Nothing cannot create something (by definition)
3) Therefore something must have existed prior to OUR something (this universe) to cause it to come into existence.

I am not claiming this proves the existence of the Christian God, just that nothing - the absence of absolutely anything - cannot create something.

So we are left with the argument that either the universe has always existed, or someONE or someTHING created it/caused it into existence. Scientific evidence currently tells us that the universe has not always existed. That there is a finite amount of energy contained within it that will eventually die out. Therefore, we can discard the notion that the universe has always existed because a finite amount of energy cannot sustain the universe throughout eternity.

Furthermore, science currently agrees that the universe is expanding out from a single point from which our universe came into existence via "The Big Bang".

So we understand that the contained universe we live in has a starting point (or birth), is expanding, and will eventually run out of usable energy and die out. It is therefore not eternal.

Which leaves us with the idea that someTHING or someONE existed prior to our universe to cause it into existence.

Back to Hawking for a moment: he argues that gravity itself is enough for a universe to create itself, but again, he has made a logical error. Gravity itself IS something. Something is not nothing and the assertion that gravity created itself is illogical.
Heya T-Mac. There are a couple of inaccurate assumptions in this post. They are, however, perfectly normal and expected inaccuracies...so this is a reply to some of your challenges....

2. Nothing can, in fact, create something.

I could use two known examples in physics and cosmology. First, we know that the universe is expanding, but the mechanism by which it is expanding isn't by movement through space, but by space being created between galaxies. The galaxies themselves don't move a whole lot in relation to the apparent movement which results from the creation of space time. It's like a polka dot balloon being inflated. The dots move further apart from one another without moving at all, because the space between them is expanding as you inflate the balloon.


Also, we know that vacuum space is not nothing. By vacuum, I mean that if we remove ALL the matter, and we remove ALL the energy from an area of space, there is still stuff there, stuff that pops in and out of existence constantly like boiling water. It is full of what is called "vacuum energy" and "virtual particles".

In theory, you can actually spawn the entire cosmos from nothing, and it is perfectly valid in physics and cosmology, and there is, in fact, evidence of this.

Also, the universe is not exactly expanding "from a single point". It is expanding equally, roughly, in all directions, but there is no place that we can point to as the original location of everything, no place for us to put a sign that says "The Universe Began Here". This sort of goes back to the rubber balloon analogy. A very small balloon could have a very small point where all the polka dots were at one time, but as it is inflated, there will never be a place on the balloon that you could put a dot that says "all dots started here".

Now, in my view, the strongest evidence of God has nothing to do with creation, and I think that is where the "Creationists" go tragically wrong in their arguments.

The true case for God, in my view, lies in the permanent, prevalent, unalterable Laws of Nature that explain, define, and rule the entire universe, written in the language of mathematics.

The case for God is not to be made in by stating that he made the Big Bang happen, but rather by stating that "The singularity" existed withing itself, until God essentially spoke the word "E=MC squared", thereby rendering the singularity impossible according to the laws of nature, and forcing it to transform itself to comply with God's will.

I'm not saying that is what I believe, only stating what to me would be the strongest case for the existence of God.

That's the question that cannot be answered.

Who made the laws of nature and what their parameters are? How did they come to be what they are? Why are they constant? The singularity could not exist with the laws of nature as we know it, and they were created during the big bang, how were the laws themselves created, and how were they determined to be what they are?


Forget the creation stuff. Who created physics? Einstein didn't crate the theory of relativity, he only discovered what was already there. Who created it?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
Peace, Prosperity, Liberty, Human Rights, Natural Rights, Civil Rights, Property Rights, Sound Money, Free Markets, Sovereignty, the Constitution, the Republic.

Shameless plug for my blog; https://puntyventures.com/
  Baron Samedi is offline Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Template-Modifications by TMS
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Patriots Planet is not affiliated with the NFL or with the New England Patriots. The views and opinions on this forum do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the owners and/or operators of this forum and website.