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Old 08-04-2004, 08:02 PM   #1
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What do you beleive in No#1.

Flagg gets his wish:



What do you think or believe on specific issues.

Not what your party or favorite politician happens to be standing for at the moment--What do you believe?


Most political and social issues are complex, and deterioriate into food fights within moments of inception, but I really would be interested to see what people actually believe in, not what their "party" wants them to believe in. If people stay to what they think, and don't waste time trying to convince those who aren't interested in listening to it (regardless of where you stand) then it could work pretty well. i.e..if the discussion is....You don't know **** you rotten POS it isn't going well, if it's...."why do you believe that?......then it probably is.

I don't want to start with the election or abortion, so let's start with what should be an easy one, as disagreeing won't be too impassioned and nasty.



Should Marijuana be legal, or should it remain illegal?


I believe pot should be legal, and a marketable commoditiy, just as alcohol is. I believe their should be an 18 yr old age limit, as that's when adulthood starts in this country; if you can be shot at and executed you should be able to twist one. Stop wasting billions on interdicting pot dealers, and start spending the billions we then save on surfboards for our children, so they can get their heads in the right space.


Should the Cheeeb be legal?????


I believe so!
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:14 PM   #2
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Re: What do you beleive in No#1.

Quote:
Originally posted by townes


Should Marijuana be legal, or should it remain illegal?
I should definitely be decriminalized. The cost in arrests, trials, probation officers, prison workers, loss of livelyhoods (and did I mentions LAWYERS ?) is immense...Unfortunately the system employs so many people that change is unlikely.
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Old 08-04-2004, 08:18 PM   #3
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These days kids need a helmet for everything except jerking off. This is stupid. Let's put a moratorium on the helmet laws, shall we??

Pot should be legal. All you have to do is look at my pot-head friend and I standing side by side and guess who is worse off. I dont smoke pot.
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Old 08-05-2004, 05:19 AM   #4
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I agree too....pretty much for everything you stated Townes....the only change I would make is to require the same age as alcohol, so either 21 or the drinking age back down to 18 (I prefer the 2nd) - 18 year olds probably drink more beer than any other age group.

But I will rake it a step further, I think all drugs should be decriminalized.

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Old 08-05-2004, 06:14 AM   #5
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Well, coming from someone who's wife runs her own substance abuse agency, I say legalize everything and let the business roll in (BTW, I'm not serious).

I've got mixed feelings about this issue. The biggest problem is the misconceptions about marijuana and just how dangerous it is. Today's weed is much more powerful than the stuff from the 60's and 70's. The most common misconception is that its not addictive. With today's version, it is addictive with many side effects including permanent memory loss. One joint has the same effect as a pack of cigarettes. Alot of pot now comes with "stuff" mixed in, some of it extremely dangerous.

I guess if it was regulated, the strength and contents could be monitored. But I doubt users are gonna go into the local drug store to buy a pack of weed. If anything, I think the street business would increase because the government will not only decrease the strength, but also tax it to death.

Actually, the biggest issue today is that heroin has become so cheap that its the drug of choice among many middle class kids. And its current purity makes it incredibly dangerous (not to mention the stuff added to it as well).

My wife has seen countless lives and families destroyed by drugs and alcohol. It can be very sad and frustrating for her. In the past year, she's seen half a dozen former or current clients die from their addictions. And she's dead set against any legalization.
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Old 08-05-2004, 06:38 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by bideau
Well, coming from someone who's wife runs her own substance abuse agency, I say legalize everything and let the business roll in (BTW, I'm not serious).

I've got mixed feelings about this issue. The biggest problem is the misconceptions about marijuana and just how dangerous it is. Today's weed is much more powerful than the stuff from the 60's and 70's. The most common misconception is that its not addictive. With today's version, it is addictive with many side effects including permanent memory loss. One joint has the same effect as a pack of cigarettes. Alot of pot now comes with "stuff" mixed in, some of it extremely dangerous.

I guess if it was regulated, the strength and contents could be monitored. But I doubt users are gonna go into the local drug store to buy a pack of weed. If anything, I think the street business would increase because the government will not only decrease the strength, but also tax it to death.

Actually, the biggest issue today is that heroin has become so cheap that its the drug of choice among many middle class kids. And its current purity makes it incredibly dangerous (not to mention the stuff added to it as well).

My wife has seen countless lives and families destroyed by drugs and alcohol. It can be very sad and frustrating for her. In the past year, she's seen half a dozen former or current clients die from their addictions. And she's dead set against any legalization.
I agree with this...I don't work in the field but throughout my life I have seen many peoples lives ruined by drugs. Most of them started off smoking marijuana as teenagers (luckily I did not). There nothing more depressing then watching someones life spin out of control to the point where they end up either over-dosing or committing suicide.

I would rather see alcohol made illegal (despite being a heavy user myself) before I would like to see marijuana or any other drugs made legal.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:33 AM   #7
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See, I am a big proponent of Personal Responsibility and personal freedom. Whatever an adult wants to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, is fine with me. I think its wrong to try and legislate stupidity.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:44 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertaker #59
See, I am a big proponent of Personal Responsibility and personal freedom. Whatever an adult wants to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, is fine with me. I think its wrong to try and legislate stupidity.
The irony of your statement is that addictions do infringe on others. The damage to the families is obvious. But the damage to society is not always so obvious. The costs in loss productivity, treatment costs for both the addiction and health issues, the cost in innocent lives lost via accidents, the costs of incarceration for countless drug related offenses (not just the illegality issues, but theft, behavior related, auto related, etc). It would be an easy issue if the user lived alone and never left the house. But the reality is that its an issue that the entire community has to deal with. Legalization solves none of that.
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Old 08-05-2004, 07:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Undertaker #59
See, I am a big proponent of Personal Responsibility and personal freedom. Whatever an adult wants to do to themselves in the privacy of their own home, as long as it does not infringe on the rights of anyone else, is fine with me. I think its wrong to try and legislate stupidity.
I see what you are saying, but the enormous cost and burden of rehab, hospitalization, and treatment for these people affects us all. Not to mention the public assistance monies that many of these people get, because they can't hold a job, or if they have their children taken away by the state, due to their inability to care for them.

All of these things harm more then just the individual doing the drugs.
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Old 08-05-2004, 08:18 AM   #10
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I agree with both of your sentiments on the costs of rehab, etc....what I disagree with is the assumption that legalization, taxation, and regulated clean drugs would necessarily cause an increase in these problems.

Someone who is irresponsible enough to partake of any kind of mind altering chemical and then get behind the wheel of a car and kill someone else deserves the death penalty.

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Old 08-05-2004, 08:40 AM   #11
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I think if civilization survives, which is something I am seriously worried about, people will look back on our era and will think of it as the time when it was actually illegal to use certain recreational drugs.

I think it is glaringly ridiculous that it is illegal to smoke marijuana. We live in a society where it is legal to drink alcohol, legal to take drugs to enhance sex, legal to smoke tobacco, legal to take certain prescription medications called "anti-depressants", legal to take medications to help kids pay attention to their teachers, legal to take pills to repress appetite BUT it is illegal to smoke a particular plant because I really don't know why.
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by thomas144
I think if civilization survives, which is something I am seriously worried about, people will look back on our era and will think of it as the time when it was actually illegal to use certain recreational drugs.

I think it is glaringly ridiculous that it is illegal to smoke marijuana. We live in a society where it is legal to drink alcohol, legal to take drugs to enhance sex, legal to smoke tobacco, legal to take certain prescription medications called "anti-depressants", legal to take medications to help kids pay attention to their teachers, legal to take pills to repress appetite BUT it is illegal to smoke a particular plant because I really don't know why.
Funny how 2 people can view things so differently. I look at drug use (including alcohol, anti-depressants) and all the pain it has caused in my life and the lives of the people close to me, and somehow you think we will be a better society once all recreational drugs are legalized.

I just don't see how. It is inevitable that once legalized, drugs would become more prevalent, and attitudes towards them would relax, I just see this causing MORE problems for our society, and don't see how it would help us at all.

As I said before, I would sign a bill outlawing alcohol before I would sign a bill legalizing marijuana. This makes me a hyprocrit since I regularly drink beer, and therein lies the problem. Alcohol, as a result of being legal, has so ingrained itself into our culture that a person like myself can see its effects destroy a persons life, and yet still continue to use it.

My opinion is that one (alcohol) is bad enough, another (marijuana) will only add to the problem.
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by thomas144
I think if civilization survives, which is something I am seriously worried about, people will look back on our era and will think of it as the time when it was actually illegal to use certain recreational drugs.

I think it is glaringly ridiculous that it is illegal to smoke marijuana. We live in a society where it is legal to drink alcohol, legal to take drugs to enhance sex, legal to smoke tobacco, legal to take certain prescription medications called "anti-depressants", legal to take medications to help kids pay attention to their teachers, legal to take pills to repress appetite BUT it is illegal to smoke a particular plant because I really don't know why.
Tobacco should be made illegal, but the powerful tobacco lobbyist will make that impossible.

Access to prescription drugs is regulated and dispensed under doctor supervision. Most prescription drugs have enormous benefits to the individual, family and community if taken as instructed.

Many experts have advocated for the regulation of diet pills and in fact, some have been removed from the market.

We've already tried prohibition once and that was a dismal failure. But just because alcohol is legal, that doesn't justify making "recreational" drugs legal. If anything, it should be incentive not to legalize. As had been stated already, the cost to society is enormous, and we're actually in better shape than some countries. The #1 cause of death among Russian men is alcohol related.

Legalizing just adds more substances that can be obtained more easily. The only two substances that can be bought freely are alcohol and tobacco and their costs are astronomical. Why make it easier to obtain others, many of which are instantly deadly and addictive?
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:44 AM   #14
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by bideau
Tobacco should be made illegal, but the powerful tobacco lobbyist will make that impossible.


Yes, I agree, but I think our program of sending smokers to Iraq to help build a democratic society there is a good one.

Conversely, I think the reason it is illegal to take recreational drugs in this country is that too many people are making too much money selling it illegaly.


Access to prescription drugs is regulated and dispensed under doctor supervision. Most prescription drugs have enormous benefits to the individual, family and community if taken as instructed.


I am not arguing that prescription drugs should be banned. I know that medication dispensed by licensed doctors is a good thing. I am arguing for more freedom, not less.


Many experts have advocated for the regulation of diet pills and in fact, some have been removed from the market.


Yes, harmful products should be taken off the market. I agree.


We've already tried prohibition once and that was a dismal failure. But just because alcohol is legal, that doesn't justify making "recreational" drugs legal. If anything, it should be incentive not to legalize. As had been stated already, the cost to society is enormous, and we're actually in better shape than some countries. The #1 cause of death among Russian men is alcohol related.


I'm not really following your logic on this one. You say prohibition of alcohol was a dismal failure. I agree. I agree that alcohol and tobacco are bad things. I guess fundamentally I do not agree that marijuana is a bad thing.


Legalizing just adds more substances that can be obtained more easily. The only two substances that can be bought freely are alcohol and tobacco and their costs are astronomical. Why make it easier to obtain others, many of which are instantly deadly and addictive?


I do in fact believe that heroin should be treated as a medical condition and distributed by the state, as it is in England (as I understand it). But that aside, I don't see the harm in legalizing marijuana, which is not an addictive substance. Tobacco is an extremely, highly addictive substance (more addictive than Heroin, I believe). For many people, alcohol is an addictive substance. For me, carbohydrates are addictive. But I've never known a single individual, or heard of one, who was addicted to Marijuana.
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Old 08-05-2004, 09:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by thomas144
Conversely, I think the reason it is illegal to take recreational drugs in this country is that too many people are making too much money selling it illegaly.


I definitely do not agree with this. Considering the tax revenue that is generated with the sale of tobacco and alcohol, I would think the government would have the incentive here. Since when did the illicit drug dealers put lobbyists in Washington?

Quote:
I do in fact believe that heroin should be treated as a medical condition and distributed by the state, as it is in England (as I understand it). But that aside, I don't see the harm in legalizing marijuana, which is not an addictive substance. Tobacco is an extremely, highly addictive substance (more addictive than Heroin, I believe). For many people, alcohol is an addictive substance. For me, carbohydrates are addictive. But I've never known a single individual, or heard of one, who was addicted to Marijuana.
This would be the crux of our disagreement. If you read my first post on the subject, I'm saying the marijuana IS addictive. My wife deals on a daily basis with all types of addicts. And many of them ARE addicted to marijuana. Its a different marijuana from the 60's and 70's. Its many times stronger. Right now I don;t have time to research the issue, but I'll take a shot at it when I get home tonight.
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