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Old 03-27-2020, 05:22 PM   #616
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
I admit that his personality is a big part of why I hate him; I abhor a liar more than anything. You have to be completely gutless to lie so frivolously. At least a thief has balls enough to steal from someone. But what policies?

What policies has he brought on that had any effect on the economy other than false promises that caused enough speculative optimism for people to invest and it's only the stock market that spied and only about half the country has any play in the stock market - so that increase is targetted to half the country.

His tax program only benefitted a fraction of the people in this country. In my case and people like me who travel a lot for work, he took away all the deductions we used to file - like per diem, expenses, et al - which were far greater than the new standard deduction and people who get paid like I do didn't get more back weekly.

Tariffs are crushing farmers the Midwest - whom I work with daily and have this conversation with.

Unemployment didn't plunge. Job creation didn't spike. The GDP didn't make a huge leap. So, where is this "unleashing of the economy?"
So is your position that the economy didn't really take off?
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:22 PM   #617
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From here

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Dr. Birx: Coronavirus Data Doesn't Match The Doomsday Media Predictions

DR. DEBORAH BRIX: I'm sure you have seen the recent report out of the U.K. about them adjusting completely their needs. This is really quite important. If you remember, that was the report that says there would be 500,000 deaths in the U.K. and 2.2 million deaths in the United States. They've adjusted that number in the U.K. to 20,000. Half a million to 20,000. We are looking at that in great detail to understand that adjustment.

I'm going to say something that is a little bit complicated but do it in a way we can understand it together. In the model, either you have to have a large group of people who a-asymptomatic, who never presented for any test to have the kind of numbers predicted. To get to 60 million people infected, you have to have a large group of a-symptomatics. We have not seen an attack rate over 1 in 1,000. So either we are measuring the iceberg and underneath it, are a large group of people. So we are working hard to get the antibody test and figure out who these people are and do they exist. Or we have the transmission completely wrong.

So these are the things we are looking at, because the predictions of the model don't match the reality on the ground in China, South Korea or Italy. We are five times the size of Italy. If we were Italy and did all those divisions, Italy should have close to 400,000 deaths. They are not close to achieving that.

Models are models. We are -- there is enough data of the real experience with the coronavirus on the ground to really make these predictions much more sound. So when people start talking about 20% of a population getting infected, it's very scary, but we don't have data that matches that based on our experience.

And the situation about ventilators. We are reassured in meeting with our colleagues in New York that there are still I.C.U. Beds remaining and still significant -- over 1,000 or 2,000 ventilators that have not been utilized.

Please for the reassurance of people around the world, to wake up this morning and look at people talking about creating DNR situations, Do Not Resuscitate situations for patients, there is no situation in the United States right now that warrants that kind of discussion. You can be thinking about it in the hospital. Certainly, hospitals talk about this on a daily basis, but to say that to the American people and make the implication that when they need a hospital bed it's not going to be there or a ventilator, it's not going to be there, we don't have evidence of that.

It's our job collectively to assure the American people, it's our job to make sure that doesn't happen. You can see the cases are concentrated in highly urban areas and there are other parts of the states that have lots of ventilators and other parts of New York state that don't have any infected. We can meet the needs by being responsive.

There is no model right now -- no reality on the ground where we can see that 60% to 70% of Americans are going to get infected in the next eight to 12 weeks. I want to be clear about that. We are adapting to the reality on the ground and looking at the models of how they can inform but learning from South Korea and Italy and from Spain and I know you will look up my numbers.
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Old 03-27-2020, 05:34 PM   #618
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Old 03-27-2020, 06:35 PM   #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
So is your position that the economy didn't really take off?
My position is that the economy started taking off long before Trump and the data supports that
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Old 03-27-2020, 07:29 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
My position is that the economy started taking off long before Trump and the data supports that
Just to be clear, nothing Trump did actually led to the economy taking off?
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Old 03-27-2020, 08:07 PM   #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
Just to be clear, nothing Trump did actually led to the economy taking off?
You like trying to put words in people's mouths. What Trump did was lie enough about his policies - which he never followed through on - to the point that invigorated confidence in the market. But Trump did not cause the economy to "take off". That's a weak term at best. The economy, for the umpteenth time - started "taking off" 5 years BEFORE Trump was President.

The ONLY thing he did was lie his way to a boost in the market - which again, I have to repeat myself - only affects about 1/2 the population, directly.
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Old 03-27-2020, 09:17 PM   #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
You like trying to put words in people's mouths. What Trump did was lie enough about his policies - which he never followed through on - to the point that invigorated confidence in the market. But Trump did not cause the economy to "take off". That's a weak term at best. The economy, for the umpteenth time - started "taking off" 5 years BEFORE Trump was President.

The ONLY thing he did was lie his way to a boost in the market - which again, I have to repeat myself - only affects about 1/2 the population, directly.
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Old 03-27-2020, 11:10 PM   #623
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Relax this is all a big hoax by the Dem's. We'doing fine trumps got this all under control.

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Old 03-28-2020, 03:43 AM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
You like trying to put words in people's mouths.
Incorrect. I'm trying to be sure I understand your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
What Trump did was lie enough about his policies - which he never followed through on - to the point that invigorated confidence in the market. But Trump did not cause the economy to "take off". That's a weak term at best. The economy, for the umpteenth time - started "taking off" 5 years BEFORE Trump was President.

The ONLY thing he did was lie his way to a boost in the market - which again, I have to repeat myself - only affects about 1/2 the population, directly.
Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 03-28-2020, 05:04 AM   #625
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Quote:
Big-Government Contagion
Appropriators throw hundreds of billions at the virus—and at everything else.

By Kimberley A. Strassel
March 26, 2020 6:39 pm ET

The Senate did something good Wednesday night, passing a bill to inject liquidity into a virus-ravaged economy. It also did something dangerous, requiring the public to be on guard.

Members of Congress are pointing out the many parts of society aided by the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act, styled the Cares Act. Checks for American families. Some $377 billion for small business. Help for air carriers and other industries. Money for hospitals.

Missing from their list is an important category, which underlines an inescapable fact: Government mostly “Cares” for government. Bills that hand out money are written by appropriators. And appropriators never miss an opportunity to expand departments, agencies, bureaus and commissions. A rough calculation suggests the single biggest recipient of taxpayer dollars in this legislation—far in excess of $600 billion—is government itself. This legislation may prove the biggest one-day expansion of government power ever.

Some of this money is required. Washington and the states are devoting significant resources to the virus response, and the bill earmarks funds for many specific and warranted purposes. A great deal of cash is going to frontline agencies—the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration, the Department of Health and Human Services. The bill sends money to the Bureau of Prisons, to help control the virus’s spread among inmates; to the IRS for an extended tax-filing season; to the Transportation Security Administration “for cleaning and sanitization at checkpoints.” Are the amounts a bit excessive? No doubt. But let’s not quibble.

More concerning is the extent to which Democrats used the bill to tighten every fiber of the social safety net. Put aside the $260 billion for unemployment benefits, potentially necessary in light of record jobless claims. The bill throws $25 billion more at food stamps and child nutrition; $12 billion at housing; $3.5 billion to states for child care; $32 billion at education; $900 million at low-income heating assistance; $50 million at legal services for the poor and so on. This is a massive expansion of the welfare state, seemingly with no regard to the actual length of this crisis.

There’s also the money appropriators threw at government for no purpose other than the throwing. Every outpost gets dollars, most for nothing more than the general command “to prevent, prepare for, and respond to coronavirus.” NASA gets $60 million. Has the virus infected the sun’s corona? The National Archives gets $8 million. Will it put the virus on display? Many departments get cash for research, regardless of their relevance to today’s medical crisis. Perhaps the Energy Department will use its additional $99 million in “science” to gauge how the virus responds in a nuclear reactor.

Then there’s the outright pork. The Forest Service gets $3 million for “forest and rangeland research,” $27 million for “capital improvement and maintenance,” and $7 million for wildfire management. The bill shovels $75 million to the National Foundation on the Arts and the Humanities, $25 million to the Kennedy Center, an odd $78,000 “payment” to the Institute of American Indian and Alaska Native Culture and Arts Development. A water project in central Utah gets $500,000. Appropriators can sneak a lot into 880 pages.

The bill sends $150 billion to state governments, on top of the dollars for unemployment, health care and education. Some of this money will be used to backstop local governments struggling with virus response, or with the economic consequences of the shutdown. But for all the Democratic demands of oversight on the bill’s business loans, the state dollars have no real strings attached. Should a locality choose to use its dollars to create new nonsensical business regulations, so be it.

Republicans waved much of this through, viewing it as the Democratic price for urgently needed business liquidity. But they should understand the left has every intention of making these spending levels the new normal. Long after this virus has passed, long after the economy is recovering, Democrats will cry foul at any cut. Should they win the presidency or the Senate this fall, the chances of rolling any of this back fall even further.

The bill’s real failure is that it makes no distinctions between temporary and permanent expansion of government. The state has a role in short-term crises, and lawmakers have an obligation to allocate the resources to respond. But Democrats successfully exploited the crisis to expand the power of government overall—perhaps for the long term. That’s especially perverse, given it was government that imposed the restrictions that shut down the economy, necessitating this rescue bill in the first place.

The Trump administration and GOP lawmakers should have been making this distinction all along, and they’d be wise to start reassuring voters immediately of their intent to rationalize the system once the urgent moment passes. Coronavirus has done enough damage. We don’t need it to also become the excuse for a permanent government power grab.

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Old 03-28-2020, 06:39 AM   #626
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For as good as you feel watching the reports of first responders, doctors and nurses, everyday people continuing to stock shelves and deliver goods and services, you feel as disgusting and dirty as a society in that there are people among us that use an emergency of this magnitude to pork up a relief bill. And those attempting to get immediate help to those that need it are basically force fed.
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Old 03-28-2020, 06:56 AM   #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr NFLfan View Post
Relax this is all a big hoax by the Dem's. We'doing fine trumps got this all under control.
I would disagree. I don't think it's a hoax, and I don't think the Dems are responsible for it. I do think they are at least as interested in the political capital they can gain as they are in solving the problem, which is reprehensible. Evidence abounds, look at what Pelosi tried to put in that relief bill. Billions in pork that is unrelated to the problem at hand. Even what passed has an astounding level of pork. The republicans passed off on it because the optics of dragging their feet were not good.

As far as it being a hoax? Not a chance of that. However, anyone with a calculator and curiosity can deconstruct the numbers that the media is driving into the minds of all those who accept their spiel without question. There is no question that people are getting sick and dying. There are many questions as to exactly how many, and the media focuses on that body count with laser precision, because that's really scary and, whipping the country into panic is good for the media. However.... the only known factor is how many have died. The death rate itself is grossly exaggerated. You can't calculate a death rate without knowing how many people are sick. So when you see these 2% or 10% death rates spread around, that is pure, pure bullshit. No one knows. The number of cases is vastly higher, because there are people without symptoms ( that is undisputed), or those who are not ill enough to seek treatment ( also undisputed). You hear it all day on TV... this is 10 times worse than the flu. No it isn't, and no one can prove that. The higher the number of cases, the lower the death rate. You can't have a death rate without a numerator in the equation.

Then you can compare this to the flu. In this country alone a huge number of people have died from the flu, since October. That's not my opinion, the CDC has it posted. ( https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm )

If you accept the lowest number of deaths from flu ( 26000) then more died from the flu in this country alone since October than worldwide from COVID19. So, you say that the COVID 19 death count is likely to increase. Well, it's possible per CDC that 60000 died from flu in the US. Do the math any way you like. Best case, worst case.

So, given that the flu is annual event with comparable casualties, one must wonder why suddenly the solution fro COVID 19 is destroying the economy, imposing unemployment upon millions, and frightening those who choose to believe every word the media says.

I'll stop there, and I won't get in to the media, that's a whole 'nother topic worthy of it's own thread. Suffice to say as I posted earlier, it is indeed possible to despise them even more as a result of their treatment of this event.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:10 AM   #628
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I would disagree. I don't think it's a hoax, and I don't think the Dems are responsible for it. I do think they are at least as interested in the political capital they can gain as they are in solving the problem, which is reprehensible. Evidence abounds, look at what Pelosi tried to put in that relief bill. Billions in pork that is unrelated to the problem at hand. Even what passed has an astounding level of pork. The republicans passed off on it because the optics of dragging their feet were not good.

As far as it being a hoax? Not a chance of that. However, anyone with a calculator and curiosity can deconstruct the numbers that the media is driving into the minds of all those who accept their spiel without question. There is no question that people are getting sick and dying. There are many questions as to exactly how many, and the media focuses on that body count with laser precision, because that's really scary and, whipping the country into panic is good for the media. However.... the only known factor is how many have died. The death rate itself is grossly exaggerated. You can't calculate a death rate without knowing how many people are sick. So when you see these 2% or 10% death rates spread around, that is pure, pure bullshit. No one knows. The number of cases is vastly higher, because there are people without symptoms ( that is undisputed), or those who are not ill enough to seek treatment ( also undisputed). You hear it all day on TV... this is 10 times worse than the flu. No it isn't, and no one can prove that. The higher the number of cases, the lower the death rate. You can't have a death rate without a numerator in the equation.

Then you can compare this to the flu. In this country alone a huge number of people have died from the flu, since October. That's not my opinion, the CDC has it posted. ( https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm )

If you accept the lowest number of deaths from flu ( 26000) then more died from the flu in this country alone since October than worldwide from COVID19. So, you say that the COVID 19 death count is likely to increase. Well, it's possible per CDC that 60000 died from flu in the US. Do the math any way you like. Best case, worst case.

So, given that the flu is annual event with comparable casualties, one must wonder why suddenly the solution fro COVID 19 is destroying the economy, imposing unemployment upon millions, and frightening those who choose to believe every word the media says.

I'll stop there, and I won't get in to the media, that's a whole 'nother topic worthy of it's own thread. Suffice to say as I posted earlier, it is indeed possible to despise them even more as a result of their treatment of this event.


I’ve been saying the same thing since this first broke.

I have zero doubt the left, and by direct association the media, came to the realization they had zero chance of winning as is. They needed a catastrophic blow to balance the scales. They overhyped this situation. It is bad. But as you pointed out and I’ve said all along, flu numbers dwarf this. No relief packages. No forced quarantines.

The problem? Once again they misread Trump. He’s handled this like a pro. Numbers continue to go up. Daily exposure shows he knows how to lead it. They compared it to Patton last night. Fantastic!

Meanwhile, the lead dog on the left holds an online event and draws 2800. Lol!!!

Did he walk off exit stage left muttering again?
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:22 AM   #629
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the Daily Mail has a heat map of cell phones that were on spring break in relation to the countries hot spots. Pretty interesting even though most of those hot spots were going to be hot spots due to the international appeal of the states.
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Old 03-28-2020, 08:51 AM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post


I’ve been saying the same thing since this first broke.

I have zero doubt the left, and by direct association the media, came to the realization they had zero chance of winning as is. They needed a catastrophic blow to balance the scales. They overhyped this situation. It is bad. But as you pointed out and I’ve said all along, flu numbers dwarf this. No relief packages. No forced quarantines.

The problem? Once again they misread Trump. He’s handled this like a pro. Numbers continue to go up. Daily exposure shows he knows how to lead it. They compared it to Patton last night. Fantastic!

Meanwhile, the lead dog on the left holds an online event and draws 2800. Lol!!!

Did he walk off exit stage left muttering again?
DS, I just can't believe no one is asking these questions. Especially the media... I thought that was their damned job! Is there a reporter anywhere that questions any of this? One who got greater than a "D" in HS algebra? Perhaps when this is over there's a chance all this was justified, but I think it's not much of one. Math is absolute, and perhaps if people have an agenda it's better to pretend it doesn't exist.
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