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Old 11-14-2017, 07:08 PM   #136
Oswlek
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
If you're a tree dwelling primate (aka our pre-chimp ancestors) whose main diet consists of fruit and main threat is snakes it stands to reason primates that could see fruit and snakes better would live longer.
Did I give you a reason to think I didn't know that?
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:17 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
Did I give you a reason to think I didn't know that?
Well you questioned why those two things would be integral to the development of our eyesight. By the way, there have been studies down that showed a pretty clear correlation between the presence of snakes and the eyesight of local primates.


Oh also:


Quote:
For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves
Sounds a lot like fruits and snakes gave us sight to me...

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Old 11-14-2017, 07:48 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Well you questioned why those two things would be integral to the development of our eyesight. By the way, there have been studies down that showed a pretty clear correlation between the presence of snakes and the eyesight of local primates.


Oh also:



Sounds a lot like fruits and snakes gave us sight to me...

No, I questioned why those would be disproportionately integral to their level of exposure/danger. That's a rather large distinction. Now that I think about it, though, I may have been going down the wrong path.

Since the garden was, you know, a garden, then the story is naturally going to utilize an attractive plant food. This is explained well enough by basic story structure and instinct without all the extraneous assumptions. Same for the fact that the "bad guy" is a dangerous animal.

Furthermore, I have no problem granting that a snake may have been the choice because it was a primary predator and, as such, it evoked stronger feelings of dread and fear. Or that fruit was chosen because of similar evolved cravings. These are both reasonable and unremarkable hypotheses. It's the bizarre leap from there to the evolved sight where the whole thing goes completely off the rails.

Am I supposed to believe that the OT writers intuited evolution in the same sense as what to eat and what to fear? That millions of years and thousands of generations imprinted on our genes the instinct that fruit is good, snakes are bad.... and eyes evolved? If not, how exactly does evolution enter the picture aside from ad hoc rationale?

Your serve.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:50 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Well you questioned why those two things would be integral to the development of our eyesight. By the way, there have been studies down that showed a pretty clear correlation between the presence of snakes and the eyesight of local primates.


Oh also:



Sounds a lot like fruits and snakes gave us sight to me...

Did you not see the part about "pleasing to the eye" that occurs prior to the eating of the fruit?
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:02 PM   #140
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Did you not see the part about "pleasing to the eye" that occurs prior to the eating of the fruit?
Or I could have just said that.
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:08 PM   #141
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BTW
There are a lot of youtubes (and articles) out there that point to my inner view.

just sayin.

You are free to choose.

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Old 11-14-2017, 08:48 PM   #142
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I wouldn't go any further than suggesting the author(s) of Genesis had some left over monkey shit come out in the process of attempting to express whatever they were trying to express with the garden of Eden story. That perhaps there was a connection between seeing snakes and fruit in the subconscious.

That said, I find it fascinating. The idea that we could know things and not know that we know them or why we know them is amazing.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:08 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
Sure. I get what you are saying. The contrast is stark but for me it solidified my faith. What Christ accomplished was taking the wrath of God as seen on display in the OT and put it on Himself so mankind did not have to bear it and would be transferred into the family of God through Christ. It is the greatest love story ever told in that regard. God coming as a man to provide redemption for mankind. So to me the contrast makes perfect sense but I can see your viewpoint as well.

One other thing that is important to mention. There was no indwelling Holy Spirit either in the OT. Before Christ died, he told His disciples it is to your advantage that I go as then the Comforter (Holy Spirit) would come and he did at Pentecost. Through Christ, God dwells within man and again changes the relationship between God and man and how God deals with men.

One last thing, Christ said "I am the Way, The Truth and the Life" so on display in Him is BOTH truth and love and one can argue that love does not exist unless there is truth. I find this point particularly interesting in today's society where truth is maligned and hidden and everyone is searching for it.


Except that the idea of original sin might be the most asinine, juvenile concept in religion. “Adam and Eve screwed up, so you are born into sin” is amazingly ludicrous.


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Old 11-14-2017, 09:13 PM   #144
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Just curious about your mythology comment. How can a book that is a majority historic narrative and also contains historic eye witness accounts (the 4 gospels) and letters written to real churches (most of the NT) be put in the mythology category? I mean no one actually made the Bible the most influential book in history, it did that by itself which the speaker in Jaric's video states up front. The Bible has outlasted Kingdoms and Kings. That is not something men have control over.


How about the fact that the gospels themselves:
1. Disagree on some points
2. Were selected while others were rejected
3. Were heavily edited
And yes, men HAVE controlled that message, from at least Constantine on.


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Old 11-14-2017, 09:14 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
I take it to mean allegorical. The Bible presents itself as a literal account but of course does at times speak in similes and allegories but the text makes it clear when it is not being literal.


Adam and Eve: literal truth or allegory?


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Old 11-14-2017, 09:15 PM   #146
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A book's classification is generally based on the author's stated intent. The writers of the Bible are writing literal accounts, eye witness accounts, actual letters to churches, etc. This is why the book has been received/viewed as it has by the majority of people who have read it over the centuries. A book really can't be declassified just because people don't want it to be true because of unintended consequences or find its content to be not believable. In other words, a consortium can decide to start putting Bibles on the fictional shelf but people who buy them/read them will still believe it to be literal. I mean we are really long past the point of trying to reclassify it anyways.


None of the gospels were written by eye witnesses.


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Old 11-15-2017, 12:56 AM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
I wouldn't go any further than suggesting the author(s) of Genesis had some left over monkey shit come out in the process of attempting to express whatever they were trying to express with the garden of Eden story. That perhaps there was a connection between seeing snakes and fruit in the subconscious.

That said, I find it fascinating. The idea that we could know things and not know that we know them or why we know them is amazing.
Bold #2 - Agreed. Human thought is wonderfully bizarre.

Bold #1 - I think we diverge here because I consider most all thought "left over monkey shit." That's why classical physics is so much more intuitive than the quantum realm - our minds have evolved to exist within the former.

We've certainly refined things and the bible (as well as other writing from that time) is immensely useful in documenting where humanity's monkey shit was at that time. But there is nothing mystical* about its creation.

* "Mystical" might not be the right word, but you keep implying-but-not-quite-elucidating unique importance to the bible that I'm struggling to grasp. Is it more than mere proximity to our ancestral roots that I've already agreed to several times?
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Old 11-15-2017, 05:39 AM   #148
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“Scientists do not join hands every Sunday and sing "Yes gravity is real! I know gravity is real! I will have faith! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down, down. Amen!" If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about the concept.”

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Old 11-15-2017, 08:15 AM   #149
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Adam and Eve: literal truth or allegory?


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This is the thing PatsFan, we can go round and round on ALL the Bible stories and analyze the authors and the culture, etc BUT what separates Christianity from ALL other religions is its personal offer to every person through Christ.

The Bible would just be a book without this outlandish offer from Christ to change people's lives. There is the written Word and then there is the experience of God Himself. And that is where the Bible ceases to just be a book written by men a long time ago to tell certain truths about where we came from, why we sin, etc. I would have never continued in my search if the Bible only offered me THAT. Christ came to forgive men of sins and give them the power over sin. No other religious person in the history of mankind has ever made that claim and then died and arose again to accomplish it. Christ is not pointing to some way of salvation, He IS the way.

I would ask you and anyone else on this forum to actually take Christ up on what He offers and test it out for yourself. Read any one of the four gospels to find out who He is what He is offering (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) and if He is not who he says He is and if what He has promised does not take place in your life then walk away. I certainly would have years ago. I am not a naive person, I test out everything in my life and certainly would not have come this far if Christ did not uphold His side of the equation.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:21 AM   #150
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What particular tests did you do? How did you end up validating Jesus in your life?
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