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Old 04-15-2019, 10:54 AM   #31
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I’m of the mindset that Tiger was at the forefront of performance enhancers in golf.

He came in as a lean, lanky, whip of a young man. Turned into an Addonis. In an age where the bulk of the competition was either doughy or flat out fat older white guys. He absolutely dominated. Incredible record. Runs. No true competition for quite some time.

And then, just like what happens in every single sport, the performance enhanced crowd breaks down. It’s rapid. It’s ugly. And it’s generally irreparable.

He looks a bit leaned out again. I am glad he’s been able to bounce back. It is good viewing. But I don’t pledge allegiance. There’s dozens that have followed his precedent now. Most have committed as much or more to their physical fitness in their prep of the game. He changed it in that manner.
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:09 AM   #32
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:11 AM   #33
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Old 04-15-2019, 11:49 AM   #34
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:23 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
But Bradyís the best of all time.

Tiger isnt. And itís not close.

All his fans just want him to be.
I agree...but, either way they're polarizing. You tend to either love them or hate them.
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Old 04-15-2019, 12:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
Iím of the mindset that Tiger was at the forefront of performance enhancers in golf.

He came in as a lean, lanky, whip of a young man. Turned into an Addonis. In an age where the bulk of the competition was either doughy or flat out fat older white guys. He absolutely dominated. Incredible record. Runs. No true competition for quite some time.

And then, just like what happens in every single sport, the performance enhanced crowd breaks down. Itís rapid. Itís ugly. And itís generally irreparable.

He looks a bit leaned out again. I am glad heís been able to bounce back. It is good viewing. But I donít pledge allegiance. Thereís dozens that have followed his precedent now. Most have committed as much or more to their physical fitness in their prep of the game. He changed it in that manner.


Manning and Rodgers are said to be the naturally gifted. Donít have to work that hard to be great.

Brady is the opposite, having to outwork everyone to compensate for a lack of natural gifts.

If you know the story of Tiger and just how many hours he spent practicing his craft, he was basically an amalgamation of both. He had tons of natural skill AND he worked harder than pretty much all of his competition back during his prime.

And he dominated for it. There were multiple years where he maintained truly insane winning percentages that will never be repeated. And he truly pushed golf forward in ways few have ever done.

I donít have to like the guy to understand that heís possibly the most impactful golfer in history. And definitely in conversation for GOAT status.


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Old 04-15-2019, 12:43 PM   #37
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usa...om/amp/2083049


11 reasons Jack Nicklaus is better than Tiger Woods

We've been debating the Jack Nicklaus vs. Tiger Woods question ever since that historic 1997 Masters and we'll be debating it for decades to come. But what if we had to have that discussion today? No predictions for the future or presumed milestones. What if Tiger Woods suddenly announced his retirement from golf after the Masters and never played again. Who would go down as the best in history?

Woods' highs have been greater. The Tiger Slam. Those dominating wins at Augusta National, Pebble Beach and St. Andrews. An unprecedented run of seven majors in 11 starts. A record-setting streak of cuts made.

He still can't touch Nicklaus. If we're comparing two careers, one that's complete and one that's complete for the sake of this discussion, Nicklaus is an easy winner. So, with the following caveats – Nicklaus and Woods are 1A and 1B on the all-time list; these facts pro-Jack, not anti-Tiger; and that all of this can change over the next 15 years – USA TODAY Sports presents 11 reasons why Jack Nicklaus is greater than Tiger Woods.

Who do you think is better? Join the conversation

1. Jack was second-best the most

Nicklaus finished second in 19 majors, and Woods has six runner-up results. Nicklaus had 48 top-three finishes at Slams, twice as many as Woods.

Overall, the current depth of fields and reach of international talent exceeds that in the days of Nicklaus. There are more talented golfers coming from more diverse locales, but very few of Woods' contemporaries have stepped up in majors. The two active players with more than three major titles – Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els – are rarely direct rivals for Woods. Nicklaus, on the other hand, played with Gary Player (nine majors), Tom Watson (eight), Arnold Palmer (seven), Lee Trevino (six) and Seve Ballesteros (five). While Nicklaus finished second more than 10 times to players on that list, Woods' runner-up finishes have been to one-hit wonders like Trevor Immelman, Zach Johnson, Rich Beem, Y.E. Yang and Michael Campbell. There have been few worthy adversaries.

I play a lot of golf. (Correction: I'm often at golf courses trying to act like I play golf.) And even though it's 2013 and the Nicklaus brand is mostly forgotten, I've seen a Golden Bear logo more recently than a TW logo. Were the Nike guys who came up with the swoosh and jumpman logo on vacation when it came time to design Woods' emblem? It looks like an upside-down pitchfork.

4. Consistency and longevity

Tiger has played 74 rounds at Augusta National and has a scoring average of 70.86, the best in history. That's more than one stroke better than Nicklaus' per-round average of 71.98. But consider: Nicklaus made 43 starts at the Masters over a span of nearly a half-century. Of his 163 rounds at the tournament, more than 40 were played after he turned 50 years old. That Nicklaus was able to keep his average under par for his career after playing so many non-competitive rounds is an underrated and remarkable achievement.

One more insane Nicklaus stat: From the 1970 British Open through the 1978 British Open, he finished in the top 10 in 31 of 33 majors. In the two in which he didn't, he tied for 11th and 13th.

5. The lack of drama

In terms of his golf legacy, Woods' past shouldn't count any more or less than Nicklaus' scandal-free career. But it will. Like it or not, there are many who root against Woods because of his philandering, and that undoubtedly will affect how he's remembered. As for me, I don't dislike Tiger Woods because of his sordid affairs, but I like Jack Nicklaus for his lack of them.

6. Inspiration and ambassadorship

When Woods was growing up, he had a poster of Nicklaus on his wall. But Nicklaus' reach extends further than that – the Golden Bear designs courses and promotes golf all around the world. Granted, Woods is too young and too busy to have such a global golf footprint, but it feels safe to say that 20 years from now we'll still be debating who was the greater golfer, but there won't be an argument about golf's best ambassador. That always will be Nicklaus.

7. Nicklaus was better at Augusta during his prime

If Augusta National is the best test in golf, Nicklaus earned slightly better marks. From 1963 to 1979, Nicklaus played in 17 Masters, won five titles and had 14 top-10 finishes. From 1997 through this year, Woods played in 17 Masters, won four and had 13 top-10 finishes. Advantage: Nicklaus.

8. Late Sunday at the Masters

Their two greatest Masters moments happened on the final three holes, under the eyes of CBS announcer Verne Lundquist. Nicklaus had the famous "yes sir!" birdie putt in 1986 on No. 17. Woods had the famous hanging-on-the-edge chip-in 19 years later on the 16th hole. These are both supremely awesome and we'll call it a wash.

As you may have heard once or 500 times, Woods never has come from behind to win on the final day of a major. Nicklaus had eight final-day comebacks in majors.

10. Tiger himself says it

"He's the greatest champion that's ever lived," Woods said of Nicklaus after winning the Memorial in 2012. Part of that was the standard lip service you pay to Nicklaus after winning his tournament, but part of it is knowing only one stat matters.

11. It's all about the majors

The count is still 18 to 14 in favor of Nicklaus. In order to surpass him, Woods needs to win five more majors. (Forget all the talk of four wins you hear on television – no one ever sets out to tie a record.) How big is that task? Only 14 golfers have won five or more majors. Mickelson hasn't, and neither has Els. Five is the career total for legends of the game like Ballesteros and Byron Nelson. Of those two players, neither won a major when he was older than 33.

This is a simple debate. The man with the most major championships is the greatest golfer in history. There are arguments to be made in Woods' defense, but even he has to admit that until he gets to 19, he's just chasing down the Golden Bear.
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:40 PM   #38
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Look, it's not a stretch that claim that Jack is the GOAT, and that's fine. But the claim that Tiger doesn't belong in the GOAT discussion is sheer lunacy.

It's easy to pull truly amazing stats from both of their careers. For example:

Quote:
40. Woods won 32 times on the PGA Tour from 1999 through 2003. No other player won more than eight times in that span.

39. From the 1999 PGA Championship through the 2002 U.S. Open, Woods won seven of the 11 majors contested. Woods was a cumulative 94 under par in those tournaments – 60 shots better than any other player.

38. Woods won 10 majors before his 30th birthday. Since the first Masters was held in 1934, the only player to even win five majors before turning 30 was Jack Nicklaus, who won seven.

37. On that note: today, there is currently only one player with double-digit PGA Tour wins (not majors, just regular victories) under age 30: Rory McIlroy.

36. In majors from 1997 through 2008, Tiger recorded 34 different rounds of 67 or better. No other player had more than 16 such rounds in that span.

35. Woods won 46 times in his 20s, 16 more than any other player in PGA Tour history (Nicklaus, again, is second). During the time Woods was in his 20s, the player with the second-most victories before age 30 was David Duval, with 13.

34. Woods was a combined 82 under at the WGC-Bridgestone Invitational from 1999 through 2009 – 49 shots better than anyone else in that span. Tiger has racked up $11 million in official earnings in that event alone – more than six times what Arnold Palmer earned in his entire PGA Tour career.

33. Woods has a career scoring average of 70.86 in the Masters. That is the best career scoring average in that event for any player with at least 50 rounds played. Woods’ 11 top-five finishes in the Masters is second all-time to Nicklaus.

32. During the 2000 PGA Tour season, Woods recorded one round higher than 73. It came in the first round of the Masters. He shot 75, on a day when the field averaged 75.59.

31. Tiger has won the Vardon Trophy (lowest scoring average on Tour) nine times, four more than any other player (Billy Casper, Lee Trevino). The trophy has been awarded since 1937.

30. Woods has earned more than $110 million in official earnings in his PGA Tour career. The year before he turned pro, the Tour’s all-time career earnings leader was Greg Norman – at $9.59 million.

29. Tiger was a combined 53 under in the majors in 2000. That was 35 shots better than anyone else that year. Though Jordan Spieth broke Woods’ season scoring mark in 2015 (he was a combined 54 under in the majors), he was just 19 shots better than his closest competitor, Jason Day (-35).

28. There are five instances in PGA Tour history where a player won a single PGA Tour event seven or more times. Woods owns four of them. Sam Snead, who won in Greensboro eight times, is the only other player to do it once.

27. Woods has spent 683 weeks as world No. 1 – 352 weeks (more than six years) more than any other player in OWGR history (Greg Norman is second).

26. A player has won a major championship with a score of 18 under or better eight times. Tiger owns five of those eight instances.

25. Woods is, of course, the only man in the modern era to win four consecutive majors – a feat known as the Tiger Slam. The last of Tiger’s four straight major wins came at age 25. The only other players in the modern era to even win four career majors (not consecutive) at age 25 or younger are Jack Nicklaus and Rory McIlroy.

24. Woods is the only player in history to win the U.S. Junior Amateur, U.S. Amateur and U.S. Open in his career. He won three of each.

23. Woods has won nine USGA Championships in his career, tied with Bobby Jones for most all-time. Woods won the 2000 U.S. Open by 15 shots. No other player in the last 100 years has won a U.S. Open by more than nine shots.

22. From 2002-05, Woods had 1,540 putts from 3 feet and in on the PGA Tour. He only missed three of them.

21. Woods completed the career Grand Slam at age 24. Not only is he the youngest player to win the slam, only five other players in the last 50 years have won a major at age 24 or younger.

20. There have only been two instances since 1900 where a player won a major championship by 10 strokes or more. Woods owns both of those instances (1997 Masters, 2000 U.S. Open).

19. Woods is the only player in the PGA Championship’s stroke-play era to win the tournament in consecutive years. He’s done it twice.

18. Tiger is 16-1 in his career in playoffs on the PGA and European tours. His only defeat came to Billy Mayfair at the 1998 Nissan Open.

17. Sports Illustrated’s Sportsman of the Year has been awarded since 1954. Woods is the only athlete to win the award more than once (1996, 2000).

16. Tiger has held the outright 54-hole lead 45 times in his PGA Tour career. He went on to win 43 of them, good for a 95.6 percent clip. For context - over the last three PGA Tour seasons, players with an outright 54-hole lead have gone on to win 39.7 percent of the time.

15. Tiger has held the outright 36-hole lead 33 times in his Tour career. He went on to win 28 of them (84.8 percent). In comparison, Jack Nicklaus’ 36-hole outright conversion rate was 63 percent.

14. Tiger’s 46 PGA Tour wins before he turned 30 would be eighth on the overall all-time wins list – one ahead of Walter Hagen.

13. Woods has missed 15 cuts on the PGA Tour as a professional. Spieth has missed 13. Spieth was three years old when Tiger turned pro.

12. Adjusted scoring averages have been calculated on the PGA Tour since 1988. There are six instances where a player’s season adjusted scoring average was better than 68.6. They all belong to Woods.

11. Woods has won 14 major championships. No other player currently age 40 or younger has more than 12 career regular PGA Tour wins (Zach Johnson, who turns 40 in February, has 12).

10. Speaking of Zach - Tiger’s 79 Tour wins are 67 more than any other player currently 40 or younger. There are seven other players age 40 or younger with at least eight career PGA Tour wins. Those players – Johnson, Adam Scott, McIlroy, Dustin Johnson, Sergio Garcia, Geoff Ogilvy and Bubba Watson – have 67 wins combined.

9. Woods is credited with 40 career wins on the European Tour, third-most all-time. Woods has never played a full season on the European Tour.

8. Tiger is the only player since World War II to win a PGA Tour event four straight years. He did it two different times.

7. Tiger is the only player in PGA Tour history to win eight or more times on a single course. He has done it on three different courses.

6. Tiger has won five straight PGA Tour starts three different times. Over the last 60 years, he is the only player to do it once.

5. From 1997 through 2008, Woods led or co-led following any round in a major 42 different times. Second on the list in that span was Phil Mickelson – with 13. Woods won 14 majors in that span.

4. Tiger has 18 career World Golf Championship victories. Second on the all-time list? Ogilvy. He has three.

3. Woods had 142 consecutive PGA Tour events without missing a cut, from 1998-2005. That is 29 more than the second-longest streak in the Tour’s history (Byron Nelson, 113 in a row). There are only four other such streaks even half as long as Woods’.

2. In a stretch from the middle of the 1999 season through the middle of the 2001 season, Woods won 20 of the 38 stroke-play events he played on the Tour (a .526 win percentage). In those events, Woods was a combined 472 under, a cumulative score 307 shots better than anyone else. Vijay Singh was second.

1. From 1997 through 2008, Woods was a combined 126 under par in majors. There are 138 other players who played at least 40 rounds in major championships in that span. Among that group, Woods was a staggering 189 shots better than anyone else. Second on the list: Joe Ogilvie, at 63 over.
Tiger's dominance up to age 30 was simply astounding, but you're right - to make his case, you have to include some "ya buts" or "what ifs". Again, I liken it to Bobby Orr. I actually think Bobby may have been the GOAT but his short career pulls his case down compared to Gretzky. Although many wouldn't argue against calling Gretzky the GOAT, they also wouldn't accept that Orr doesn't belong in the conversation.

Moreover, much of your list is off-course related and frankly I don't care about that. Just like I don't care about Brady off the field in terms of GOAT discussions.

Is Tiger the GOAT? I don't know. Can it even be defined given the difference in generations? The gap in their primes is even wider than Brady and Montana for instance. Although to be fair, Tiger revolutionized and grew golf far more than Jack did. And that's not a slight against Jack, but if we're going to include off-course stuff...

So again, he may not be the GOAT but he's definitely the modern-day GOAT. His pre-30 career is stuff of legends and will never be matched again. His post-30 career was marred by his awful personal shit and (more so) countless terrible injuries. Of course Jack holds a number of volume records given he's appeared in 586 PGA Tour events versus Tiger's 352. You don't think that if Tiger's career had proceeded unencumbered during his prime that he wouldn't have eaten up most of the volume records if he played an extra 200 tournaments?

So again, the argument for Woods includes some 'what ifs' and that's why his case is harder to make. The potential for true GOAT king status was there but he never reached it for a variety of reasons. But his run from the late 90s to his US Open win at Torrey was the GOAT 'run' and is unmatched by any decade in Jack's career.

Like Gretzky, Jack had the benefit of being a top performer with longevity. Like Orr, Tiger dominated his peers but for a much shorter period of time.

All I'm saying is: Tiger belongs in the conversation.
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:42 PM   #39
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Imagine what The Bears numbers could’ve been with that skill, that compete.

And his own Dr. Galea.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gol...-drugs-us/amp/

Woods’s doctor Anthony Galea pleads guilty to bringing banned drugs to U.S.
July 7, 2011
p1-galea_298x467_0.jpg
Anthony Galea was indicted by a federal grand jury in October on charges that he smuggled human growth hormone and other substances into the United States.
DAVID DUPREY/AP

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — A Canadian sports doctor whose high-profile clients have included Tiger Woods and Alex Rodriguez pleaded guilty in federal court Wednesday to bringing unapproved drugs, including human growth hormone, into the United States to unlawfully treat pro athletes.

Dr. Anthony Galea, a healing specialist from Toronto who was sought out by the biggest names in sports, was indicted by a federal grand jury in October on charges that he smuggled human growth hormone and other substances into the United States and lied to border agents to avoid getting caught. He faces similar charges in Canada.

Some of the U.S. charges were dismissed with his plea.

Galea, who wasn't licensed to work in the United States, was accused of treating 20 professional athletes at their homes, hotels and friends' houses from October 2007 to September 2009.

The indictment did not identify any clients, but prosecutors said they included golfers, professional baseball and football players and others.

Galea, 51, pleaded guilty in front of U.S. District Judge Richard Arcara, eliminating the need for a trial — along with the likelihood that evidence and witness statements could publicly reveal information about who he visited or billed.

Galea, who is married with seven children, agreed to forfeit $275,000 before sentencing Oct. 19. He was released until sentencing, at which he could get up to two years in prison.

The doctor, who has a vocal cord disorder, answered the judge politely in a croaking voice and said he wouldn't appeal.

Woods has said he's been treated by Galea but didn't receive performance-enhancing drugs. The New York Mets' Jose Reyes and Carlos Beltran also have acknowledged talking to federal authorities during the investigation.

Rodriguez, the New York Yankees' star slugger, told Major League Baseball officials that he didn't receive performance-enhancing drugs from Galea after the doctor told The Associated Press he had prescribed anti-inflammatories for him.


Prosecutors alleged some athletes received injections of HGH, banned by major sports, and Actovegin, a derivative of calf's blood not approved for use in the United States. They also said some athletes were given intravenous Actovegin drips and platelet-rich plasma therapy, a treatment used to speed healing that involves extracting blood from patients and re-injecting just the plasma.

Galea was widely known for using platelet-rich plasma therapy. He became the focus of Canadian and U.S. authorities' attention in September 2009, when his assistant, Mary Anne Catalano, was stopped at the border in Buffalo with a small quantity of human growth hormone, Actovegin and vials of foreign homeopathic drugs.

Catalano is scheduled to be sentenced later this month after pleading guilty to a count of lying to border agents. As part of her plea, she's been cooperating in the investigation.

The U.S. criminal complaint charged Galea with conspiracy, smuggling, distributing human growth hormone and introducing an unapproved drug into interstate commerce.

U.S. charges of smuggling, conspiring to lie to federal agents and defraud the U.S. government and distributing HGH were dismissed with Galea's plea.

In October 2009, Canadian authorities charged Galea, the former team doctor of the Canadian Football League's Toronto Argonauts, with selling Actovegin, conspiracy to import an unapproved drug, conspiracy to export a drug and smuggling.

Galea was accused of making multiple trips to U.S. cities from 2007 to 2009 to meet with athletes from Major League Baseball, the National Football League and the Professional Golfers' Association and injecting at least seven with a drug mixture containing human growth hormone.

He was accused of injecting at least one NFL player with Actovegin and providing a retired player with human growth hormone after his playing days had ended. He billed three football players about $200,000, prosecutors said
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:07 AM   #40
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Give it a rest Dwight, the fact is Tiger is up there for discussion as the GOAT.

And I would argue Nicklaus played in a world with less formidable competition. The golfing world was a lot smaller then.
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Old 04-16-2019, 06:47 AM   #41
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Give it a rest Dwight, the fact is Tiger is up there for discussion as the GOAT.

And I would argue Nicklaus played in a world with less formidable competition. The golfing world was a lot smaller then.
Donít worry Robbie. Heís got a lock on second.
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Old 04-16-2019, 07:54 AM   #42
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Also, RE: Galea, Tiger never denied getting treatments from him but did deny using PEDs.

That doesn't mean he didn't use, but he also shouldn't be disqualified from the conversation just because some think he might have used PEDs (no proof).

Furthermore, Tiger was never huge, even in his prime. Yes he was muscular and athletic, especially compared to his competitors, but he was never massive. It's also been documented that during his prime (especially the earlier years) his entire life revolved around practice (600+ balls per day) and the gym (2 sessions per day). Which helps explain why his body didn't hold up.

I have no idea whether he took PEDs or not, but it's not a stretch to say that even without them he gave himself a big edge with those off-course habits.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:13 AM   #43
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Also, RE: Galea, Tiger never denied getting treatments from him but did deny using PEDs.

That doesn't mean he didn't use, but he also shouldn't be disqualified from the conversation just because some think he might have used PEDs (no proof).

Furthermore, Tiger was never huge, even in his prime. Yes he was muscular and athletic, especially compared to his competitors, but he was never massive. It's also been documented that during his prime (especially the earlier years) his entire life revolved around practice (600+ balls per day) and the gym (2 sessions per day). Which helps explain why his body didn't hold up.

I have no idea whether he took PEDs or not, but it's not a stretch to say that even without them he gave himself a big edge with those off-course habits.
Vs all the PED guys whoíve stepped up and said ď Awe, you got me guys.Ē Please.

And youíve got a bodybuilding philosophy only wrt steroids. Yes, they CAN make you noticeably larger. But that is if your goal is muscle hypertrophy. But part of that process is the products ability to aid in recovery. Recover faster. Train again. Repeat.

The fact Tiger trained twice a day and hit 600+ balls only makes the likelihood stronger.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:30 AM   #44
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Vs all the PED guys whoíve stepped up and said ď Awe, you got me guys.Ē Please.

And youíve got a bodybuilding philosophy only wrt steroids. Yes, they CAN make you noticeably larger. But that is if your goal is muscle hypertrophy. But part of that process is the products ability to aid in recovery. Recover faster. Train again. Repeat.

The fact Tiger trained twice a day and hit 600+ balls only makes the likelihood stronger.
Well he started the 600+ balls a day thing when he was like 12 so I don't know about that.

It's also possible that he was a genetic outlier? You know, like Brady being an elite QB at 40+ with PeyPey drugs.

I only referred to Woods' size because a prior comment in this thread brought it up.

Moreover, it seems to me that if he were pumping himself full of drugs (like HGH) he would have been able to recover from those injuries far better than he did. He was injured constantly after a certain point, likely from years of overtraining and refusing to rest properly when injured.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:16 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
Vs all the PED guys whoíve stepped up and said ď Awe, you got me guys.Ē Please.

And youíve got a bodybuilding philosophy only wrt steroids. Yes, they CAN make you noticeably larger. But that is if your goal is muscle hypertrophy. But part of that process is the products ability to aid in recovery. Recover faster. Train again. Repeat.

The fact Tiger trained twice a day and hit 600+ balls only makes the likelihood stronger.
He isn't that big...In my prime, I was way bigger. Eh...

BUT, I do agree with you that he did anabolics. He most likely did. Possibly still is. The side effects from using that shit isnt good. Bad back included...
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