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Old 07-14-2015, 12:23 PM   #46
Annihilus
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Originally Posted by No.1jag View Post
Jeremy Irons is Jesus now?
I believe that is Lemmy from Motorhead (which makes that picture even better, lol).
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:24 PM   #47
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In many respects you are describing the church as the body and Christ as the Head of the church.

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 "Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body.... Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many."

Romans 12:4-5, 27 "For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others... Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it."
You've got the right idea, conceptually. I just don't believe Jesus was any more divine than you or I. Or Muhammed, or anyone else.

I pretty much am disinclined in believing anyone that seeks to insert themself between a person and God as some kind of intermediary or messenger.

Having said that, I have, sitting on my nightstand, a copy of the KJV, a copy of Ecclesiastes (my favorite book in the Bible), and a copy of the combined Books of Wisdom..all 3.

I'm not religious or spiritual, really, but I look for wisdom and inspiration wherever I can find it without bias.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Annihilus View Post
I believe that is Lemmy from Motorhead (which makes that picture even better, lol).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkBDkwa_WrU
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Old 07-14-2015, 12:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
You've got the right idea, conceptually. I just don't believe Jesus was any more divine than you or I. Or Muhammed, or anyone else.

I pretty much am disinclined in believing anyone that seeks to insert themself between a person and God as some kind of intermediary or messenger.

Having said that, I have, sitting on my nightstand, a copy of the KJV, a copy of Ecclesiastes (my favorite book in the Bible), and a copy of the combined Books of Wisdom..all 3.

I'm not religious or spiritual, really, but I look for wisdom and inspiration wherever I can find it without bias.
Just curious, are you open to the concept of shared DNA/ Jungian 'shared consciousness' as an explanation for the perception of the work of 'god', or is a deity needed?

I am of the opinion that WE (the individual) are the centers of any religion, and the deity is the intermediary we invent to try and explain how we feel like we are connected in a deep way (like Darth described above).
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:03 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by benhamean View Post
Just curious, are you open to the concept of shared DNA/ Jungian 'shared consciousness' as an explanation for the perception of the work of 'god', or is a deity needed?

I am of the opinion that WE (the individual) are the centers of any religion, and the deity is the intermediary we invent to try and explain how we feel like we are connected in a deep way (like Darth described above).
I can't answer that, as I am not informed about Jungian shared consciousness.

I'm not sure what is meant by "God" and "deity" in your question, but maybe I can answer that, at least.

I am a small and insignificant part of the human race. The human race is a very tiny and insignificant neural network, which is a small and insignificant part of the cosmos' brain asking what it is and what its nature is.

That's us. We are a part of God, trying to figure out what God is.

So, if that jives with Jungian shared consciousness, then maybe.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:08 PM   #51
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You should all read the graphic novel series "Preacher" imo.
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:12 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
I can't answer that, as I am not informed about Jungian shared consciousness.

I'm not sure what is meant by "God" and "deity" in your question, but maybe I can answer that, at least.

I am a small and insignificant part of the human race. The human race is a very tiny and insignificant neural network, which is a small and insignificant part of the cosmos' brain asking what it is and what its nature is.

That's us. We are a part of God, trying to figure out what God is.

So, if that jives with Jungian shared consciousness, then maybe.
We share genetics. Jung also thought that we shared memories/ consciousness with each other (and maybe other creatures as well), which may well be genetically encoded (my thought). The two things seem to me to relate very well, and may be at the root of why we seem to have instinct and insight sometimes into what should be brand new observations.

So much of our genetic material is 'mysterious' (the purpose or use has not been pinpointed yet). There is the potential for generations of experience to be passed along, and the sense of connectedness we may feel to be very real in this way- without an outside deity having anything to do with it.

That's what I meant. Did that help, or make things more muddy?
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:30 PM   #53
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Oh, I get it. You were referring to my notion of we are made of recycled parts.

I think my best answer to that would be "No, I do not believe that, but I do not discount the possibility."

I am open to the idea, but do not see enough evidence of it to convince me, although I do think there is something to instinct.

I mean, we have some really dumb life forms on this planet, with no brains to speak of, and yet they can express actions that indicate intelligence, or at least learned behavior.

And what of "hive minds", such as ants possess? One ant is stupid, but the whole is greater than the parts. I would even argue that human societies operate on hive mind principles, where the thoughts of individuals are suppressed in favor of societal thoughts and actions.

Where is this knowledge stored? How does something know that fire is deadly without burning themselves to learn it?

How do grubs and worms know to fear the sound of moles digging? It's not like they read it on the internet or learned it at school.

There is clearly a way to transmit information from one generation to the next without communication or imitation.

So, I am open to the notion of your Jungian theory, but I do not see evidence of anyone convincingly having dinosaur memories.

I also do not believe in reincarnation....like those who think we come back in some other form....say, a chicken...to which I say "what if you come back as a chicken but end up being an omelete instead, do you get a do over?"

I dunno, I have no recollection of being a woolly mammoth, nor do I notice any woolly mammoth behaviors to make me believe that I was a woolly mammoth.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:08 PM   #54
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Heya T-Mac. There are a couple of inaccurate assumptions in this post. They are, however, perfectly normal and expected inaccuracies...so this is a reply to some of your challenges....

2. Nothing can, in fact, create something.

I could use two known examples in physics and cosmology. First, we know that the universe is expanding, but the mechanism by which it is expanding isn't by movement through space, but by space being created between galaxies. The galaxies themselves don't move a whole lot in relation to the apparent movement which results from the creation of space time. It's like a polka dot balloon being inflated. The dots move further apart from one another without moving at all, because the space between them is expanding as you inflate the balloon.


Also, we know that vacuum space is not nothing. By vacuum, I mean that if we remove ALL the matter, and we remove ALL the energy from an area of space, there is still stuff there, stuff that pops in and out of existence constantly like boiling water. It is full of what is called "vacuum energy" and "virtual particles".
Virtual particles are not nothing, therefore this does not dispute the assertion that nothing (no-thing) can create something.

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Also, the universe is not exactly expanding "from a single point".
I was speaking of the singularity, not a fixed point in our current universe.

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Now, in my view, the strongest evidence of God has nothing to do with creation, and I think that is where the "Creationists" go tragically wrong in their arguments.

The true case for God, in my view, lies in the permanent, prevalent, unalterable Laws of Nature that explain, define, and rule the entire universe, written in the language of mathematics.
I agree. Where did these laws come from? How is the universe so complex, precise, and intricate, functioning fully in relationship with itself?

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Who made the laws of nature and what their parameters are? How did they come to be what they are? Why are they constant? The singularity could not exist with the laws of nature as we know it, and they were created during the big bang, how were the laws themselves created, and how were they determined to be what they are?


Forget the creation stuff. Who created physics? Einstein didn't crate the theory of relativity, he only discovered what was already there. Who created it?
Exactly.
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:11 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Oh, I get it. You were referring to my notion of we are made of recycled parts.

I think my best answer to that would be "No, I do not believe that, but I do not discount the possibility."

I am open to the idea, but do not see enough evidence of it to convince me, although I do think there is something to instinct.

I mean, we have some really dumb life forms on this planet, with no brains to speak of, and yet they can express actions that indicate intelligence, or at least learned behavior.

And what of "hive minds", such as ants possess? One ant is stupid, but the whole is greater than the parts. I would even argue that human societies operate on hive mind principles, where the thoughts of individuals are suppressed in favor of societal thoughts and actions.

Where is this knowledge stored? How does something know that fire is deadly without burning themselves to learn it?

How do grubs and worms know to fear the sound of moles digging? It's not like they read it on the internet or learned it at school.

There is clearly a way to transmit information from one generation to the next without communication or imitation.

So, I am open to the notion of your Jungian theory, but I do not see evidence of anyone convincingly having dinosaur memories.

I also do not believe in reincarnation....like those who think we come back in some other form....say, a chicken...to which I say "what if you come back as a chicken but end up being an omelete instead, do you get a do over?"

I dunno, I have no recollection of being a woolly mammoth, nor do I notice any woolly mammoth behaviors to make me believe that I was a woolly mammoth.
My guess is that your dinosaur and wooly mammoth DNA segments and memories probably have atrophied, appendix-style, from irrelevance.
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:28 PM   #56
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Virtual particles are not nothing, therefore this does not dispute the assertion that nothing (no-thing) can create something.
Virtual particles arise from nothing. In a long mathematical proof that is well beyond my simple layman's understanding, this means that the universe, not only could have, but almost certainly did, arise from absolutely nothing, without any requirement for God.

I am speaking of current scientific theory, not disputing whether God did or did not create the universe, just pointing out that God is not required, to have a universe in current theory. Creation appears to be a more or less spontaneous and inevitable property of the universe.

I am a big fan of Lawrence Krauss, who is a forerunner in this field of thought, but I would not recommend him to you since he uses foul language, and also wastes far too much time and thought trying to dispute God's existence, which is my biggest beef with him.

I view any brilliant and learned person spending time debating God as largely a tragic waste of their talents....I'd rather see them spend that time an energy unraveling more secrets scientifically.

It's kind of like how I don't like musicians taking time out of their show to babble about politics. They can believe whatever they want, but I'm not buying tickets to listen them pop off about their political views....just shut up and play. I feel the same about scientists popping off about God. They are just wasting time for both of us...they should spend that energy on science.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 07-14-2015, 03:03 PM   #57
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I would be interested in elaboration, if you have the time.
Good deal.

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Atheism is a matter of faith as well, no more and no less than believing in God.
It appears that you are going with the common misuse of atheist, "belief that God doesn't exist" in which people bridge the two by inserting "agnostic" in between. In this framework, "atheist" has an equal burden and an equally impossible task.

That isn't an accurate usage, however. An atheist isn't defined as someone who is certain that God doesn't exist, s/he is someone who doesn't feel that theists have met their burden of proof and thus doesn't find a reason to believe. Gnosticism pertains to knowledge and isn't really germane to the topic.

Frankly, "atheist" is ultimately a meaningless term. For every other situation, the null hypothesis is the default and requires no description, which explains why there are no a-santaists or a-pixieists. Saying that someone needs an equal amount of faith to be an atheist is akin to saying those that believe and disbelieve in the Easter Bunny are on equal footing.

Quote:
if you want to know God, you study the cosmos, his creation.
This is one I used to find compelling, but I realized recently why it doesn't hold water.

In all your examples, you study the work of a great artist/musician/architect/etc by analyzing it compared to its peers. The distinction between "A" and "not A" is an essential component of this methodology.

As the creator of all things, God doesn't allow for this contrast so all you end up doing is utilizing an unfalsifiable presupposition.

Quote:
For those atheists who say "prove God exists, there is no scientific evidence", I would remind them and point out that any scientist will tell you that lack of evidence does not disprove existence.
This is similar to the first one. Yes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You'll get no argument from me on that. However, as Christopher Hitchens said, "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

If we had to take seriously every assertion that couldn't be proven conclusively false, we'd be here for a while.

Quote:
We had zero evidence of the Higgs-Boson yet for many decades the majority believed the Higgs Boson existed.
This is a unique spin on the more common idea of equal faith being required for both science and religion. I like it.

The reason why it isn't a valid comparison boils down to a single word: evidence.

The HB wasn't just some wild speculation grounded purely in scientific ignorance, it was postulated as a falsifiable explanation for previously unexplained data. "Falsifiable" is an extremely important term because science can never prove anything right. Ever. All it can do is prove something wrong. If it tries long enough to prove something wrong and only ends up accumulating a mountain of corroborating results, then they begrudgingly accept it as the best explanation. Theology, by comparison, deals entirely (and intentionally) in the unfalsifiable.

HB also highlights a critical element of science that is absent in theology: predictability. If A is true, then we would expect B, if we don't find B then A isn't true. It's a core component of falsifiability.

The fact that evidence allowed for the prediction of the HB decades before its discovery, all intermediate results only supported the hypothesis and then it was actually discovered is a triumph of the scientific method, not anything that can be used to denigrate that community.

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First, I believe that schools ought to be able to teach most anything they want, if it is supported by the local community. If they're not your kids, it's not your business. That's my take, anyway. If the community wants to teach creationism in the schools, it's their business. I call it "tolerance" to allow people to live they way they want to live, and teach their kids what they want to teach their kids.
I hear you, but I'm a firm believer that the only way to have freedom of religion is to have freedom from religion.

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Third, religion generally is innocent of all the lives it has cost. It's just an often used vehicle for governments to inspire the people to kill and die and destroy for political agendas. Today "for democracy and freedom" is just a better tool to use than "for God and Christianity". Religion is no more responsible for the millions of deaths caused in it's name any more than democracy is responsible for the millions of deaths caused in it's name.

The only 3 causes of these deaths are power, profits, and politics.
9/11, suicide bombers, Charlie Hebdo, abortion clinic murders... these are all religion based, and this is just in the past couple decades.

I will grant you that larger events like wars are usually inspired by other forces, like greed or power, but religious faith is often a critical exploitation by those in command. Yes, Patriotism could also be taken advantage of, but there is nothing quite like being able to summon the support of the most powerful ally in the universe.

I guess my point is that, even if you can find alternate root cause, religion doesn't get extraneous bystander treatment from me.

Looking forward to your replies.

Last edited by Oswlek; 07-14-2015 at 03:43 PM..
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Old 07-14-2015, 03:08 PM   #58
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We all inherently know this when we hear nonsense spouted by {fill in the blank with whatever religion you don't follow}, but I think it's time to recognize it in our viewpoints as well.
I'm responding to this post early in the thread and no doubt more profound thoughts have been raised in the pages I haven't read, but what Oswlek said above goes to one of the main things that annoys me with some religious people.

Pretty much every human society throughout history has had a supernatural belief system that, among other things, deals with how the world was created and what happens when you die. I understand the idea of having faith and participating in a religion because it's what you were raised in (which is usually the case), or you were somehow drawn to it.

But, I think that people who are certain that their religion is the true path and explanation of things that are inherently unknowable are arrogant and willfully naive not to acknowledge that people throughout history have searched for the same answers because it's part of human nature and it's very unlikely that they've hooked up with a group that has found truth more than any of the others.
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Old 07-14-2015, 03:24 PM   #59
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True, but only with regard to that specific hypothesis. Everything from the BB onward stands on far more solid ground.
By the way. BB big Bang, BB BillBelichick

Coinkydink? I think not.

Good stuff here guys.

Cheers, BostonTim

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Old 07-14-2015, 03:54 PM   #60
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9/11, suicide bombers, Charlie Hebdo, abortion clinic murders... these are all religion based, and this is just in the past couple decades.

I will grant you that larger events like wars are usually inspired by other forces, like greed or power, but religious faith is often a critical exploitation by those in command. Yes, Patriotism could also be taken advantage of, but there is nothing quite like being able to summon the support of the most powerful ally in the universe.

I guess my point is that, even if you can find alternate root cause, religion doesn't get unwilling participant treatment from me.

Looking forward to your replies.
I really like this post, especially the bit about being "falsifiable"...but right now, I want to address this.

The examples you quoted, and most examples of this sort, are misrepresentations based largely on ignorance, or lack of perspective from the point of view of the perpetrators.

I would go into this quite a bit, but I am running out of time here....but suffice it to say the following....

Much of why the "islamic world" dislikes us is because we have been screwing with their countries for many decades...overthrowing governments, corrupting their leadership to benefit our interests, keeping in power and supporting dictators who ruled by brutality over a citizenship that disliked their government, etc, etc.

Case in point, Palestinians, Jews, and Christians all lived together in Palestine quite peacefully for a very long time prior to the 20th century. With the Zionist movement to occupy Palestine, under British protection, the mandatory arming of the jews and the disarming of the Palestinians. Thus, when the British left Palestine, the Jews essentially wiped out the Palestinians and took their land, much like white folk did to the American Indian.

Now, over time, it has been beneficial for the the arab powers to motivate the people by religious preaching, and it has become largely a "Jew vs Arab" conflict, but the root is power and wealth, in the form of seizing land by way of ethnic cleansing.

If religion were the cause, there wouldn't have been jews, christians, and arabs coexisting in the first place.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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