>
Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards

Home Members List Top Posters Arcade Casino Toolbar
Go Back   Patriots Planet - New England Patriots Forums and Message Boards > The Razor > Politics and Religion Forum
Mark Forums Read rel="nofollow">Mark Forums Read
Register All Albums FAQDonate Calendar

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-29-2012, 01:36 PM   #46
anderson
Awfully Cavalier
 
anderson's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dappertutto, come un Capo
Posts: 28,341
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $630860
My Mood


anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
Quote:
In England and Wales firearms were reportedly used in 11,227 offences, 0.3% of all recorded crimes.
There were 7,024 offences in England and Wales in which firearms, excluding air weapons, were reportedly used, a 13% decrease on the previous year, continuing the general decline since 2005/06.
Source: House of Commons 2012
__________________
  anderson is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 01:40 PM   #47
anderson
Awfully Cavalier
 
anderson's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dappertutto, come un Capo
Posts: 28,341
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $630860
My Mood


anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post

If banning guns actually made any impact why did they go up?

Oh and gun violence didn't decrease in the period of 2001 -2009.

From the BBC.



From the Mail.



The total hand gun ban was imposed in 1998. How is it that for a decade, the number of gun crimes was almost double that of before the ban?

How did these guns get into the country?

Why didn't the ban reduce gun violence?

I poked around the ONS site and didn't immediately find the source you referred to regarding the decrease in gun crime. There were multiple crime related reports, but I'm not sure which one you are referring to. Can you provide a link?

Also, you claimed



Can you provide links to this data?
The same data from that daily mail article seems to have founded all these other websites showing gun violence has gone up. That same data doesn't seem to exist in other sources.

As for how guns are used and obtained eventhough they're banned? Mostly from grandfathered weapons owned by private individuals.
__________________
  anderson is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 01:41 PM   #48
Pyxis
First one at MY house
 
Pyxis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas, Bitches
Posts: 19,232
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $179500
My Mood


Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradyLady12 View Post
Wait...what? National statistics are more reliable? Govts twist statistics all the time for their own agenda or to make it look like their policies can't be blamed.

Example: Unemployment is really more like 22% per shadowstats.
But a blogger living in Granny's basement trying to incite civil disobedience is a credible source?

I'll stick with statistical reports regularly generated by university students as part of an academic process.
Posted via Mobile Device
  Pyxis is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 02:10 PM   #49
O_P_T
Why Be Normal
 
O_P_T's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Windsor, CT
Posts: 20,667
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $809125
My Mood


O_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
O_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousyO_P_T makes Greek statues weep in jealousy
Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson View Post
The same data from that daily mail article seems to have founded all these other websites showing gun violence has gone up. That same data doesn't seem to exist in other sources.

As for how guns are used and obtained even though they're banned? Mostly from grandfathered weapons owned by private individuals.
It doesn't?

From Politics.co.UK, which has the same #'s you cite.

Quote:
The combined impact and subsequent public outcry motivated the Conservative government at the time to amend the existing legislation on gun ownership. The Firearms Amendment of 1997 completely banned handguns for private ownership.

Despite the handguns ban imposed under the 1997 Firearms Amendment, research carried out following the implementation of the Act saw a 40 per cent increase in the number of gun crime incidents in the UK.
...

While the number of homicides from gun crime remained largely static for over a decade, 2007 proved a decisive year for this issue. A wave of gang related incidents were committed by teenagers against other teenagers, with some high profile cases ending in fatalities. London, Manchester and Nottingham were most notably affected.


....

In England and Wales firearms were reportedly used in 11,227 offences, 0.3% of all recorded crimes.

There were 7,024 offences in England and Wales in which firearms, excluding air weapons, were reportedly used, a 13% decrease on the previous year, continuing the general decline since 2005/06.

Source: House of Commons - 30 January 2012
That seems completely consistent with the graphic from the BBC



Gun crime increased after the guns had been "completely banned", peaked in '05 and has been dropping since. it has not yet gone below the level it was before the ban.

What makes you think that there was a grandfather clause in the 1998 act?

If smuggling was not a factor in these guns being in the country, why have they consider increasing the penalty for smuggling?

From the same politics.co.uk article.

Quote:
Concerns also continued to increase about the use of illegal firearms by street gangs and organised criminals.

In February 2012, the Home Secretary launched a consultation on strengthening the law in this area, in particular whether the penalty should be increased for illegal importation of firearms and also whether there was a need for a new offence of possession of illegal firearms with intent to supply.

The consultation was set to run for 12 weeks and sought the views of the public, the police, the CPS, victims groups, the judiciary, and voluntary organisations.

In its response to the consultation published in October 2012, the Government stated that it was clear there was “strong support for taking a tougher stance on control of prohibited firearms.”

It had been decided, therefore, to increase the maximum penalty for illegal importation of firearms to life imprisonment and to create a new offence of 'possession with intent to supply' . The changes would be implemented as soon as a legislative opportunity arose.
__________________
I AM PATRIOTS

"Some day I want to see them raise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl, "Jesus Christ, it's the Goddamned Patriots again and that son-of-a-f*cking-bitch Belichick".
Paraphrasing George S. Patton
  O_P_T is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 03:05 PM   #50
BradyLady12
Give me liberty!
 
BradyLady12's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Where there are Rays of sunshine
Posts: 24,072
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $478285
My Mood


BradyLady12 gets itBradyLady12 gets itBradyLady12 gets itBradyLady12 gets it
BradyLady12 gets it
Guns get obtained by criminals from stealing them from military, police and the black market.
__________________
"In government, the scum rises to the top."~ Hayek
  BradyLady12 is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 03:07 PM   #51
PatsFanLisa
No filter
 
PatsFanLisa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sharon
Posts: 24,300
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $697157
My Mood


PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradyLady12 View Post
Guns get obtained by criminals from stealing them from military, police and the black market.
Do you have a credible link for that, the first two?
  PatsFanLisa is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 03:51 PM   #52
Pyxis
First one at MY house
 
Pyxis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas, Bitches
Posts: 19,232
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $179500
My Mood


Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFanLisa View Post
Do you have a credible link for that, the first two?
I'm quoting you so that perhaps she'll see it and provide a credible link. Because I live in a city with three military bases and a shitload of cops and I've NEVER heard a report of either of them getting jacked out of guns.

Am I on ignore also? Maybe someone who isn't on ignore can quote us so the link could be posted.


Posted via Mobile Device
  Pyxis is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 03:53 PM   #53
PatsFanLisa
No filter
 
PatsFanLisa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sharon
Posts: 24,300
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $697157
My Mood


PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis View Post
I'm quoting you so that perhaps she'll see it and provide a credible link. Because I live in a city with three military bases and a shitload of cops and I've NEVER heard a report of either of them getting jacked out of guns.

Am I on ignore also? Maybe someone who isn't on ignore can quote us so the link could be posted.


Posted via Mobile Device
I'm not sure it matters. The statement was laughably absurd. I'm sure everyone else on the board acknowledges that.
  PatsFanLisa is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 04:22 PM   #54
Pyxis
First one at MY house
 
Pyxis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas, Bitches
Posts: 19,232
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $179500
My Mood


Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFanLisa View Post
I'm not sure it matters. The statement was laughably absurd. I'm sure everyone else on the board acknowledges that.
Indeed.

I took it to construe that guns were stolen from the military, the police AND the black market. Is that how you read it?

Stealing from the black market would be uber stupid.
Posted via Mobile Device
  Pyxis is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 04:51 PM   #55
anderson
Awfully Cavalier
 
anderson's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Dappertutto, come un Capo
Posts: 28,341
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $630860
My Mood


anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
anderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud ofanderson has much to be proud of
Here is the correlations map. Correlations, not proof.

__________________
  anderson is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 05:14 PM   #56
PatsFanLisa
No filter
 
PatsFanLisa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sharon
Posts: 24,300
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $697157
My Mood


PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis View Post
Indeed.

I took it to construe that guns were stolen from the military, the police AND the black market. Is that how you read it?

Stealing from the black market would be uber stupid.
Posted via Mobile Device
I'm still trying to figure out how you steal guns from the police. I wonder if AWTE could enlighten us on that if he pops in here. Do you suppose his department just leaves guns lying around willy-nilly just for shits and giggles to see which criminal can abscond with one?
  PatsFanLisa is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 05:22 PM   #57
Pyxis
First one at MY house
 
Pyxis's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Texas, Bitches
Posts: 19,232
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $179500
My Mood


Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
Pyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forumPyxis is destined for the Oepidus Tex forum
They probably have them on a table next to the donuts. The sign reads, "Take one. They're free."

Right?
Posted via Mobile Device
  Pyxis is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 05:30 PM   #58
AllWorldTE
Registered User
 
AllWorldTE's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: nearby
Posts: 8,763
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $309418


AllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on money
AllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on money
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradyLady12 View Post
Guns get obtained by criminals from stealing them from military, police and the black market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFanLisa View Post
Do you have a credible link for that, the first two?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis View Post
I'm quoting you so that perhaps she'll see it and provide a credible link. Because I live in a city with three military bases and a shitload of cops and I've NEVER heard a report of either of them getting jacked out of guns.

Posted via Mobile Device
Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFanLisa View Post
I'm still trying to figure out how you steal guns from the police. I wonder if AWTE could enlighten us on that if he pops in here. Do you suppose his department just leaves guns lying around willy-nilly just for shits and giggles to see which criminal can abscond with one?
I know of a few isolated instances where guns have been stolen or misappropriated from LE but it's pretty isolated in scope. I recall a shooting in Boston years ago where a gun that had been in evidence somehow ended up back on the street. I personally worked a case where a guy played involuntary Russian roulette with his girlfriend's head using an FBI issued handgun that had been stolen out of an agent's home years before during a housebreak. I can think of quite a few other instances where officer's duty and/or personal weapons were stolen during housebreaks. It's no different than guns being stolen during house breaks into non-LE personnel's homes.

I'm sure the Military loses it's share of weapons to theft but it can't be more than isolated incidents.

Guns are a lot like drugs. They are stored in property and eventually orders are cut for their disposal. If proper procedural safeguards are not in place, some amount of guns and/or drugs may be misappropriated through corruption. See the case of the former MSP spokesman who was diverting seized cocaine destined for destruction. Large departments now have two officers assigned to transport drugs to the labs and destruction site and stringent accounting procedures in place to combat these types of diversions.

Guns are in the same category. Accounting is paramount in making sure weapons slated for destruction are actually destroyed.

One thing that bothers me is the purchase of new weapons. When smaller Departments purchase weapons, they usually do a wholesale change so that everyone is carrying the same weapon. To lower the cost of the new purchases, the old guns are traded in and are then sold to non-law enforcement wholesalers. These guns end up in Central America, Mexico and South America and eventually many of them make their way back to the US where they end up in the wrong hands. I'd rather they were just melted down.

Last edited by AllWorldTE; 12-29-2012 at 05:39 PM..
  AllWorldTE is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 05:35 PM   #59
PatsFanLisa
No filter
 
PatsFanLisa's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sharon
Posts: 24,300
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $697157
My Mood


PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
PatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to beholdPatsFanLisa is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllWorldTE View Post
I know of a few isolated instances where guns have been stolen or misappropriated from LE but it's pretty isolated in scope. I recall a shooting in Boston years ago where a gun that had been in evidence somehow ended up back on the street. I personally worked a case where a guy played involuntary Russian roulette with his girlfriend's head using an FBI issued handgun that had been stolen out of an agent's home years before during a housebreak. I can think of quite a few other instances where officer's duty and/or personal weapons were stolen during housebreaks. It's no different than guns being stolen during house breaks into non-LE personnel's homes.

I'm sure the Military loses it's share of weapons to theft but it can't be more than isolated incidents.

Guns are a lot like drugs. They are stored in property and eventually orders are cut for their disposal. If proper procedural safeguards are not in place, some amount of guns and/or drugs may be misappropriated through corruption. See the case of the former MSP spokesman who was diverting seized cocaine destined for destruction. Large departments now have two officers assigned to transport drugs to the labs and destruction site and stringent accounting procedures in place to combat these types of diversions.

Guns are in the same category. Accounting is paramount in making sure weapons slated for destruction are actually destroyed.
So you're saying they're not on a table next to the donuts?

Of course there's isolated incidents. The person that put out the notion made it seem as though most guns held by criminals were stolen from the military and police and/or gotten on the black market. I thought the reference to the first two was rather ridiculous and certainly out of the ballpark of truth and reality, so I was hoping for a link to a credible source.

I like the "Take one" sign next to the "Free Donuts" idea myself.
  PatsFanLisa is offline Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2012, 05:41 PM   #60
AllWorldTE
Registered User
 
AllWorldTE's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2006
Location: nearby
Posts: 8,763
Posting Frequency


Casino cash: $309418


AllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on money
AllWorldTE should have their picture on moneyAllWorldTE should have their picture on money
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxis View Post
They probably have them on a table next to the donuts. The sign reads, "Take one. They're free."

Right?
Posted via Mobile Device
Donuts? Do cops like donuts?
  AllWorldTE is offline Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Template-Modifications by TMS
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Patriots Planet is not affiliated with the NFL or with the New England Patriots. The views and opinions on this forum do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the owners and/or operators of this forum and website.