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Old 12-27-2018, 08:08 PM   #106
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Old 12-27-2018, 10:57 PM   #107
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Is that the badder part of town?

Cheers
It's not ideal.
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Old 12-28-2018, 07:32 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
I don't think Israel is apples to apples.

Comparing the Israeli wall to the US southern border wall is like comparing the Berlin Wall to the Great Wall of China.

A wall to guard a few miles is one thing. Hundreds and thousands of miles is a whole different animal.

FWIW, I'm sort of neutral on the wall. I don't think it;s a bad idea to try to secure your own borders, but I also know that walls never work, and the bigger they are, the less well they work.

I would surrender the wall idea in a heartbeat in exchange for prosecuting every government official that in any way grants any government benefits to illegals...jobs..licenses...health care...food stamps...social security...anything. Every government official involved gets tried, convicted, imprisoned, and gets any and all government benefits related to their work revoked permanently.

Then, I would immediately institute a program through the IRS that conducts audits of payrolls on American companies, and for each illegal found on the payroll, that company will be assessed a $1 Million dollar tax assessment, with interest accruing just like any other unpaid tax.

Screw the wall. The real criminals are here, they are the enablers, they are Americans, and many of them are government officials living off of OUR paychecks!

THen, if the illegals still want to come here, and live under a bridge with no job and no public benefits...well, I guess some people just want to live the dream.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old 12-28-2018, 08:28 AM   #109
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You know, it used to be how it worked.

Now its a fuckfest. Sneak in, get lost, get bennies.

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Old 12-28-2018, 09:17 AM   #110
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I actually agree with Baron on this one. There's better ways to secure the border and my fear is all this wall will do is push more desperate people into the hands of coyotes and other unsavory individuals involved in human trafficking
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:44 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
I don't think Israel is apples to apples.
It isn't, but the broader point is that a wall is not a solution, it is part of a solution.

I don't see why detractors are arguing from the point that a wall isn't a perfect solution. It's this weird strawman argument that doesn't even make sense if you take a minute to think about it.

You used the example of Israel's small size. I'll use another example of a small area: a prison. Prisons are set up with multiple fences with concertina wire at the top of each. This is still a relatively simple partition to breach, but there are guards with weapons and dogs who can hunt a trespasser down. All of which, when used in tandem, deters a breach with practically 100% effectiveness.

But take away any one of those pieces of the security solution and the effectiveness drops considerably.

I have not seen anyone, anywhere suggest that wall is a 100% effective solution all by itself with no other means of border security needing to be in place.

The truth of the matter is, partitions work.

They work around prisons.

They work around personal properties.

They work around commercial properties.

They work around gated communities.

They work around other countries.

Partitions work because they slow down trespassers enough that they are more easily caught, detained, and punished. Without guards, prisoners would easily escape the barriers around their prisons. But the wall/fence/whatever slows them down enough to be caught which discourages the behavior because it is so unlikely to be successful.

The Mexicans and Central Americans don't have some magic wall-defeating method that prisons, personal properties, gated communities, and other countries have figured out that we can't.

The problem is that - like most political arguments - the goalposts have shifted. Detractors have taken this really weird and common-sense-lacking stance that if a wall cannot be a 100% effective solution all on its own, then it is a failure.

A wall is not a solution. A wall is PART of a solution.

If we are serious about cracking down on illegal immigration there are many approaches that need to be addressed (punishing [or the threat of punishing] employers, removing benefits for illegals, ease of entry, visa accountability, and completely overhauling the legal immigration process to incent legal entry and disincent illegal entry and to name a few).

Those are the things that absolutely, HAVE TO BE addressed if there is going to be a change and we want to protect our national sovereignty.

Unfortunately, a wall is "racist". (D)
Taking away benefits is "racist". (D)
Cracking down on employers is unpopular. (D & R)
Congress is too lazy or has no desire to reform immigration laws. (D & R)

These ideas that need to be addressed and implemented, IN TANDEM, are all shot down by Democrats and partly shot down by Republicans. They say with their words that they care about our citizens and our borders and our sovereignty, but their actions and their arguments tell a different story.

They are ignoring the majority to fight for the incremental votes. They consider their current base as loyal to them, so they ignore the base and cater to the feels of the immigrants, hoping to win the vote of the immigrants and those that identify with them. It is shameful for politicians to act this way and they ought to be rounded up and chased out of town.

Quote:
I would surrender the wall idea in a heartbeat in exchange for prosecuting every government official that in any way grants any government benefits to illegals...jobs..licenses...health care...food stamps...social security...anything. Every government official involved gets tried, convicted, imprisoned, and gets any and all government benefits related to their work revoked permanently.

Then, I would immediately institute a program through the IRS that conducts audits of payrolls on American companies, and for each illegal found on the payroll, that company will be assessed a $1 Million dollar tax assessment, with interest accruing just like any other unpaid tax.

Screw the wall. The real criminals are here, they are the enablers, they are Americans, and many of them are government officials living off of OUR paychecks!

THen, if the illegals still want to come here, and live under a bridge with no job and no public benefits...well, I guess some people just want to live the dream.
I agree. There's hardly any punishment for either the public or private sector encouraging illegal immigration, and the benefits far outweigh the risks from the perspective of those who are here or plan to come here illegally.

It's all part of a larger solution. Anyone pretending it is just about a wall is either being dishonest or unintelligent.

Politicians are failing us from EVERY angle on this issue and then they have the audacity to turn around and blame ICE and Border Patrol. And there are people who believe these charlatans!
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Old 12-28-2018, 11:52 AM   #112
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Several things.

1) It's one thing to man a mile of fence, it's quite another to man 1000 miles of fence.

2) On either side of the fence, there is water. Water is easily traversable.

3) Tunnels are easy.

4) The weakest link will still be human beings. Man the wall, the man on the wall gets paid to let people through. Just like the TSA. That's life. It's human nature. It's historically proven.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
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Old 12-28-2018, 12:02 PM   #113
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Something I was thinking about this morning (which I assume the conservative factions will hate but who knows) would be to offer some kind of incentives for people who go through the legal immigration process.

Like, if you complete the legal immigration process we'll offer assistance finding a job or even temporary living assistance for a short time while the immigrants are being settled. (I pulled those out of my ass so don't get hung up on the specifics.)

My personal opinion is the best way to secure the border is a combination of negative incentives for illegal immigration compared to positives incentives for legal immigration.

You also need to sort out the process itself but the most effective way to do this is to make it so people want (and can) immigrate legally.
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Old 12-28-2018, 12:09 PM   #114
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As I understand it that's the way it is now. Illegals typically get nothing other than public school and the emergency room other than if a hospital has a charitable foundation.

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Old 12-28-2018, 12:51 PM   #115
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It's not ideal.
Well the South side of Chicago
Is the baddest part of town
And if you go down there
You better just beware
Of a man named Leroy Brown
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:15 PM   #116
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Quote:
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Something I was thinking about this morning (which I assume the conservative factions will hate but who knows) would be to offer some kind of incentives for people who go through the legal immigration process.

Like, if you complete the legal immigration process we'll offer assistance finding a job or even temporary living assistance for a short time while the immigrants are being settled. (I pulled those out of my ass so don't get hung up on the specifics.)

My personal opinion is the best way to secure the border is a combination of negative incentives for illegal immigration compared to positives incentives for legal immigration.

You also need to sort out the process itself but the most effective way to do this is to make it so people want (and can) immigrate legally.



You're offering up solutions to problems from a logical point of view. That, unfortunately, is why your opinions are so worthless in today's environment.



In all seriousness, negative vs positive incentives is definitely something that could help bring order the immigration situation. The problem is that bringing order to the problem would require all the different sides to want order on some level. Far too many want (profit from) open borders, amnesty, and benefits for illegals for that to be the case.
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:41 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Something I was thinking about this morning (which I assume the conservative factions will hate but who knows) would be to offer some kind of incentives for people who go through the legal immigration process.

Like, if you complete the legal immigration process we'll offer assistance finding a job or even temporary living assistance for a short time while the immigrants are being settled. (I pulled those out of my ass so don't get hung up on the specifics.)

My personal opinion is the best way to secure the border is a combination of negative incentives for illegal immigration compared to positives incentives for legal immigration.

You also need to sort out the process itself but the most effective way to do this is to make it so people want (and can) immigrate legally.
There are enormous social resources invested in helping immigrants. Rightfully, in my view.

But it goes to all immigrants, legal and illegal. In fact, that is a large part of the reason why you find many immigrants who are anti-illegal immigration, competition for resources, housing, and stuff like that. If you immigrate legally, and apply for assisted housing for you and your family, and wait 3 years or whatever to get it, you get pissed off when you see the housing going to illegals when you took the trouble of doing everything by the book.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 12-28-2018, 01:54 PM   #118
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You're offering up solutions to problems from a logical point of view. That, unfortunately, is why your opinions are so worthless in today's environment.
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:04 PM   #119
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Old 01-07-2019, 08:25 AM   #120
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President Trump quoting the people who now call the border wall "racist":
“We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked...” Barrack Obama, 2005. "I voted, when I was a Senator, to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in...” Hillary Clinton, 2015.
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