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Old 07-11-2018, 05:37 PM   #76
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I would only respond that we are not playing Risk and if we are it is time to actually take over some stuff. What I see as the argument for NATO is that they are our minions and so we must protect them. Fine. If that is the case, they should be paying more than the share that we are paying. We are being played for a financial fool, and a military personnel fool. In a game of Risk, that is a recipe for failure.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:39 PM   #77
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NATO gets to deal with Trump now because a succession of polite and demure Presidents sat there and nodded while Euros quietly explained why they couldn’t pony up. Tough luck.
They all want us to defend against Russia while they line Putin’s pockets with money for gas. Strange that a former German PM is now chairman of Russia’s gas company.
Trump is spot on on this issue.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:51 PM   #78
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I would only respond that we are not playing Risk and if we are it is time to actually take over some stuff. What I see as the argument for NATO is that they are our minions and so we must protect them. Fine. If that is the case, they should be paying more than the share that we are paying. We are being played for a financial fool, and a military personnel fool. In a game of Risk, that is a recipe for failure.
But we are playing a game of Risk, in one sense.

The side with the most "countries" can impose their will on the other players.

If we don't have Europe on "our side", they will be on the side of some other "player".

So some other "player" will have their economic and military power increased, and our's will be decreased by the same amount.

Look at it this way.

When NATO was founded, it was done so to unite Western Europe to allow them to resist any expansion by Stalin's USSR.

If they hadn't united, the individual countries were vulnerable to being picked off 1 by 1.

As Stalin added each country to his coalition, his power would increase and so the advantage he had over any other country would increase.

Consider the UK, what was the advantage they gained joining NATO?

After all, Stalin would have to gobble up West Germany, Luxembourg, France, Belgium, and The Netherlands, before they would be on the Channel and pose a direct threat to the UK.

But at that time, what would be the UK's options?

Who could she turn to in Europe for help?

No one.

She would have to oppose not only Stalin and the USSR, but all the assets that Stalin could obtain from all those other countries.

What chance would the UK have?

None.

Yes, the Atlantic is wider than the Channel, but the analogy is exactly the same.

If the US does nothing until the enemy is on our shores, we would have thrown away our best opportunity to nip the threat in the bud and keep it from gaining strength and getting anywhere near our shores.

It simply is in our best interests to keep any other power from gaining sufficient strength, either economically or militarily to be able to threaten our position in either area.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:15 PM   #79
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I'm sure Russia and China would never consider doing anything like that.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:32 PM   #80
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Uh Crimea?

Oh and just what is happening in eastern Ukraine?

Yes, I know freedom loving citizens are rising up against the running dog imperialists. No Russian troops here, nothing to see, move along.

I mean it must be true RT said so.
It's not an invasion if the residents declare independence, which they did.

Eastern Ukraine is not an occupation.

If that was the case, then the American colonies were "invaded" by France in the Revolutionary War.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:35 PM   #81
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Oh so Russia's only possible way to be a "legitimate threat" is if they can invade.

Meanwhile, NK can pose " the primary existential threat" because they could launch an EMP attack.

I don't know what kind of fuzzy logic you're applying here, but in my mind a country poses a threat or it doesn't.

The nature of the threat is moot to determining if it is or is not a threat.

Yes, the nature of the threat will determine how significant that threat may be, but it has nothing at all to do with the binary decision of threat/no threat.
I'm trying to figure out your fuzzy logic that having American troops in Europe will somehow stop a nuclear attack.

I mean...are anti-missile systems more effective if American troops are hanging around? Are they more effective if we have 10,000 troops there instead of, say, 1000 troops?
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:38 PM   #82
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As Stalin added each country to his coalition, his power would increase and so the advantage he had over any other country would increase.

She would have to oppose not only Stalin and the USSR, but all the assets that Stalin could obtain from all those other countries.
How did that work out for the USSR? How's the Warsaw Pact doing nowadays?

If memory serves, they went bankrupt over 20 years ago.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:58 PM   #83
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If we're going to f*uck NATO, then Florida is the natural choice for the penis.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:42 PM   #84
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If we're going to f*uck NATO, then Florida is the natural choice for the penis.
Kind of flaccid.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:02 PM   #85
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If we're going to f*uck NATO, then Florida is the natural choice for the penis.
Cape Cod is a peninsula too, but the water is a lot colder.
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:11 AM   #86
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Using the dissolution of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact as an argument AGAINST NATO is some PhD level cognitive dissonance...

Lulz

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Old 07-12-2018, 06:43 AM   #87
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Cape Cod is a peninsula too, but the water is a lot colder.
Yeah, but it's more like your fun finger.

Cheers
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:53 AM   #88
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Look I agree that the NATO allies should increase their military expenditures, but you are completely full of shiite regarding the number of tanks in the German army.

According to this web site they have 432 tanks and over 4,600 AFV's..

Oh and for the record, they have a list by country here.

The USA has about 5,800.

Oh and that country which only a "brainwashed moron" would think was a threat has over 20,000.
Excuse me...only 20 functional tanks. My bad.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-militar...ion/a-42603112

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/05/...-no-plans-fix/

https://www.stripes.com/news/as-germ...ysmal-1.527253

https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-lack-...ner/a-42663215

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/07/09...many-generals/

https://blog.forecastinternational.c...ary-readiness/

And this isn't new.......from 2015....

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...he-brink-13852

As of 2017.....0 functional submarines, less than 10% of their Typhoon fighters are operational, they don't have enough working planes to even train their pilots on.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...missioner.html


Do I have to mention that Germany beats the drums the loudest about the need for American forces to protect them from Russia, while at the same time making multi billion dollar deals for Russian oil?

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

---------- Post added at 07:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 AM ----------

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Using the dissolution of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact as an argument AGAINST NATO is some PhD level cognitive dissonance...

Lulz

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..unless you understand economics.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:08 AM   #89
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Seems like some good news coming out of this. Could all be talk but even Merkel is signaling a need to change share of the burden.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:15 AM   #90
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NATO SECRETARY GENERAL JENS STOLTENBERG: “NATO Allies has to invest more in defense, and that's not exactly what they're doing”

And he said that before the meeting.
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