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Old 06-14-2016, 04:55 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
I don't believe you can do that legally.

You have to show residency for state laws to apply to you, even in states without gun control. Maybe if you had a fake ID.

Then, of course, you are violating many, many laws in the process....which sort of goes back to my point...

Gun control will work about as well as "alcohol control" and "drug control".....meaning you will create an extremely profitable market for the darker elements.

Where the white market prohibits, the black market prospers...and the competition for such markets is almost always bloody and violent. It was with alcohol, it was with drugs...in what world would it be the opposite with guns?

I mean, Mexico has some pretty draconian gun control laws. They don't mean sh*t...just that you can make lots of money gun running.
It used to be that around 10 percent of all weapons bought in Virginia ended up in DC, because all you needed to buy a gun in VA was proof of citizenship and being over 18.
I'll admit to not knowing if that's still the case, but you'll easily see how it's impossible to make any conclusions regarding DC gun crime when all you had to do was drive to Alexandria and go back...
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:03 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by anderson View Post
It used to be that around 10 percent of all weapons bought in Virginia ended up in DC, because all you needed to buy a gun in VA was proof of citizenship and being over 18.
I'll admit to not knowing if that's still the case, but you'll easily see how it's impossible to make any conclusions regarding DC gun crime when all you had to do was drive to Alexandria and go back...
So...what you're saying is.....banning guns works about as well as banning alcohol and banning drugs has worked.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:06 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
So...what you're saying is.....banning guns works about as well as banning alcohol and banning drugs has worked.
I think you're being willfully obtuse if you think that was my point. No offense.

---------- Post added at 07:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

(Also, please provide these "more violent crime in the UK" statistics at your convenience...)
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:13 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by anderson View Post
Please do...
I asked you to back up this claim in another thread and you never did.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...%9312_YB14.png

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...%9312_YB14.png

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...%9312_YB14.png

England and France have the most comprehensive gun control in europe...they don't even let the police carry....lol.

How's that working out for them?

Not many guns there....plenty of victims, though. Plenty of victims.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:22 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by anderson View Post
I think you're being willfully obtuse if you think that was my point. No offense.[COLOR="Silver"]
No offense taken.

I am only pointing out how ludicrous it is to think that banning guns won't bring a flood of black market firearms here, just as Prohibition and the War on Drugs did.

You are complaining that the guns are being brought in illegally and that's why the gun control isn't working....to which I respond...."Well, yes. That's how economics works. You narrow the supply, you increase demand and profit...in a captive market....and the guys that show up to meet that demand aren't going to be the upstanding citizen type."

You don't think the most powerful, ruthless, and vile criminal organizations are going to pass up an opportunity like a gun ban, do you? They sure didn't with alcohol, drugs, or prostitution.....imagine the incentive when you give them a monopoly on the gun market.

Why do people who support legalizing marijuana and say it will reduce crime, then think the opposite is true with guns....GUNS!! Really? You think the bad guys won't come running the day that law gets passed, with a trunk full of ammunition and AK-47's?

Of course they will.

The good guys that never were gong to shoot anyone, anyway, will be replaced by turf wars, gang wars...it will be Prohibition all over again. We'd need a LOT more prisons and body bags.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:27 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...%9312_YB14.png

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...%9312_YB14.png

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...%9312_YB14.png

England and France have the most comprehensive gun control in europe...they don't even let the police carry....lol.

How's that working out for them?

Not many guns there....plenty of victims, though. Plenty of victims.
You realize that burglary is considered a violent crime in UK crime statistics, yes?
And that phone harassment is also a violent crime...

And that you have a total of 550ish murders per year in a country of roughly 65 million.

Comparatively, I think the UK is doing a mite better than the US. I also think your claim is inaccurate.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:30 PM   #217
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No offense taken.

I am only pointing out how ludicrous it is to think that banning guns won't bring a flood of black market firearms here, just as Prohibition and the War on Drugs did.

You are complaining that the guns are being brought in illegally and that's why the gun control isn't working....to which I respond...."Well, yes. That's how economics works. You narrow the supply, you increase demand and profit...in a captive market....and the guys that show up to meet that demand aren't going to be the upstanding citizen type."

You don't think the most powerful, ruthless, and vile criminal organizations are going to pass up an opportunity like a gun ban, do you? They sure didn't with alcohol, drugs, or prostitution.....imagine the incentive when you give them a monopoly on the gun market.

Why do people who support legalizing marijuana and say it will reduce crime, then think the opposite is true with guns....GUNS!! Really? You think the bad guys won't come running the day that law gets passed, with a trunk full of ammunition and AK-47's?

Of course they will.

The good guys that never were gong to shoot anyone, anyway, will be replaced by turf wars, gang wars...it will be Prohibition all over again. We'd need a LOT more prisons and body bags.
The only reason the above scenario would possibly play out is because of the surplus of weapons already distributed, not because you'd suddenly be able to arm all of Chicago from Canada or Mexico.
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Old 06-14-2016, 07:55 PM   #218
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(Also a bit LOL to compare US gun ownership to countries like Sweden and Switzerland, one which requires you to be a member of a sports shooting club for at least six months before you can even apply for your ownership license and one where you're actually receiving training by law)
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Old 06-14-2016, 10:32 PM   #219
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You realize that burglary is considered a violent crime in UK crime statistics, yes?
And that phone harassment is also a violent crime...

And that you have a total of 550ish murders per year in a country of roughly 65 million.

Comparatively, I think the UK is doing a mite better than the US. I also think your claim is inaccurate.
The links I posted compare EU countries to EU countries, using consistent definition of violent crimes for all.

The figures for violent crime comprise those for violence against the person (such as physical assault), robbery (stealing by force or threat of force) and sexual offences (including rape and sexual assault). Close analysis of this class of crime is difficult because not all Member States use the standard definition. However, the general trend at the level of the EU is a decline of about 6 % in the number of these offences recorded between 2007 and 2010.

This overall decline is strongly influenced by the figures from England & Wales, where there was a fall of over 146 thousand violent crimes recorded between 2007 and 2010 (Table 2).

Looking at other Member States, the picture appears heterogeneous, with significant rises between 2007 and 2010 in Hungary (+30 %), Denmark (+28 %) and Ireland (+19 %) and large decreases in Latvia (-26 %), Lithuania (-22 %) and Slovakia (-21 %).


http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ends_in_detail

Britain has the strictest gun laws in Europe. Noone disputes that.

I suspect you would find a similar dynamic if you compared US states to US states. The stricter the gun laws, the greater the violent crime rate...comparing them by common standards. Blue states with stricter gun laws would have much higher violent crime rates than red states with loose gun laws, California would have a much higher violent crime rate than Utah, for example.

The fact is, predators look for someone to kill, rape, or rob...when confronted with firearms, they change their minds. The vast majority of attempted crimes on gun owners end with no crime and no shots fired, the message is understood the moment the gun is drawn.

Attempted crimes that were aborted due the victim being armed don't show up in crime statistics. Only unarmed victims show up.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:46 AM   #220
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The links I posted compare EU countries to EU countries, using consistent definition of violent crimes for all.

The figures for violent crime comprise those for violence against the person (such as physical assault), robbery (stealing by force or threat of force) and sexual offences (including rape and sexual assault). Close analysis of this class of crime is difficult because not all Member States use the standard definition. However, the general trend at the level of the EU is a decline of about 6 % in the number of these offences recorded between 2007 and 2010.

This overall decline is strongly influenced by the figures from England & Wales, where there was a fall of over 146 thousand violent crimes recorded between 2007 and 2010 (Table 2).

Looking at other Member States, the picture appears heterogeneous, with significant rises between 2007 and 2010 in Hungary (+30 %), Denmark (+28 %) and Ireland (+19 %) and large decreases in Latvia (-26 %), Lithuania (-22 %) and Slovakia (-21 %).


http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ends_in_detail

Britain has the strictest gun laws in Europe. Noone disputes that.

I suspect you would find a similar dynamic if you compared US states to US states. The stricter the gun laws, the greater the violent crime rate...comparing them by common standards. Blue states with stricter gun laws would have much higher violent crime rates than red states with loose gun laws, California would have a much higher violent crime rate than Utah, for example.

The fact is, predators look for someone to kill, rape, or rob...when confronted with firearms, they change their minds. The vast majority of attempted crimes on gun owners end with no crime and no shots fired, the message is understood the moment the gun is drawn.

Attempted crimes that were aborted due the victim being armed don't show up in crime statistics. Only unarmed victims show up.
Britain uses a definition of violent crime as "any crime committed against a person" wherefore it's misleading as hell using violent crime statistics to show any relationship with the US much less relation to gun ownership gun ownership. People have been misleading the public with these statistics for at least the last 5 years eventhough it's like comparing apples to pears.

The number you should be looking at is ~550 murders per year and compare that to the US. Murders are murders.

What you're doing is saying "oh look, they have a lot of stolen TV's; all that violence because they don't have guns"
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Old 06-15-2016, 06:12 AM   #221
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Britain uses a definition of violent crime as "any crime committed against a person" wherefore it's misleading as hell using violent crime statistics to show any relationship with the US much less relation to gun ownership gun ownership. People have been misleading the public with these statistics for at least the last 5 years eventhough it's like comparing apples to pears.

The number you should be looking at is ~550 murders per year and compare that to the US. Murders are murders.

What you're doing is saying "oh look, they have a lot of stolen TV's; all that violence because they don't have guns"
"The figures for violent crime comprise those for violence against the person (such as physical assault), robbery (stealing by force or threat of force) and sexual offences (including rape and sexual assault)."

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...ends_in_detail

Nice try, though....ignoring the opening sentence and all.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:47 AM   #222
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It's not a nice try. Britain simply uses a different methodology when accumulating statistics on violent crime.
I don't know why you keep ignoring this fact when even Eurostat tells you that they are having difficulties comparing country by country because not all countries use a STANDARD DEFINITION.

You'll find, for instance, that violence against a person includes DUI's, etc. Even violence with no injury.

Britain, strict gun laws where your bike is more likely to get stolen but you're not likely to get murdered.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:03 AM   #223
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Also, I should note that the only thing I'm trying is to shatter the misconception that the UK is more violent than the US.
The claim was even made by UK papers (OMGOSH we're more violent than Americans!), but this has been debunked about 18 million times now.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:13 AM   #224
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Also, I should note that the only thing I'm trying is to shatter the misconception that the UK is more violent than the US.
The claim was even made by UK papers (OMGOSH we're more violent than Americans!), but this has been debunked about 18 million times now.
Not sure how anyone could believe such a claim.

On a per capita basis, murder and gun crimes in the US are staggering compared to most first world nations.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:53 AM   #225
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What do statistics have to do with the right to bear arms?
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