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Old 10-19-2006, 01:12 AM   #76
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Re: Re: Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:51 AM
What does this have to do with anything we are discussing?
It was a direct response to something you said. I even addressed you to avoid confusion.

Duh.


Still trying to pretend that America was founded on religion, huh?

That's pretty ignorant of you, if I must say.

And I must. I must.
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Old 10-19-2006, 01:14 AM   #77
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Re: Re: Re: Re: If it weren't for religion

Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:51 AM
Don't know.
Don't know? Don't know?

Didn't your mommy ever tell you that lies make the baby Jesus cry?
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Old 10-19-2006, 01:24 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by aloyouis on 10-19-2006 at 01:39 AM
You ask us to watch comedians and admittedly dumb movies...do you think this HELPS you make a point?


Wanna hear something really funny?

God created Adam and Eve right?

Their decendants lead to your 92 million deaths that you don't blame on religion.

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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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Old 10-19-2006, 02:04 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 01:48 AM
But we're not a democracy. We're a Republic.
And a republic works basically the same way as a democracy, only there's an added step. The people vote for representatives (majority rules there), and then those representatives vote on laws (majority rules again). Minorities are protected from oppression, but that doesn't mean they have superior, or even equal power to the majority.
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Old 10-19-2006, 02:13 AM   #80
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Not to pull this totally off topic but I'd like to hear from some bible thumpers about this. I won't hold my breath....

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm

Quotations by learned men from the 19th century:
"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2
"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3

Quotation from the 21st century:
"If we apply sola scriptura to slavery, I'm afraid the abolitionists are on relatively weak ground. Nowhere is slavery in the Bible lambasted as an oppressive and evil institution: Vaughn Roste, United Church of Canada staff.



Overview:
The quotation by Jefferson Davis, listed above, reflected the beliefs of many Americans in the 19th century. Slavery was seen as having been "sanctioned in the Bible." They argued that:

Biblical passages recognized, controlled, and regulated the practice.
The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property. 4
Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.

Eventually, the abolitionists gained sufficient power to eradicate slavery in most areas of the world by the end of the 19th century. Slavery was eventually recognized as an extreme evil. But this paradigm shift in understanding came at a cost. Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained.

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Quote:
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
Quote:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
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Same as the '72 Dolphins. Now, it has become a tired and silly ritual through the years watching these graying and balding men gather each year to pop champagne corks whenever the last unbeaten team falls, and that sad clinging to the past diminishes what they did, and it if there is one thing even Pats-haters can agree on, it's this: a 19-0 Pats team makes that annual ritual disappear, mercifully, forever.

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Old 10-19-2006, 06:35 AM   #81
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Wow - I'm not sure which direction this thread is heading now.

I'm starting to think we might not be able to keep it civil.

In an effort to keep it so, I will say that I personally tend to agree with steelerfan's comments. I will also say that some other posters, whose position differs from mine, have some valid points (i.e., would I be upset if my kid's school wanted to teach them the Koran, etc.).

HOWEVER, that is also the crux of my position. I feel that we, as a nation, are letting the minority rule the majority. Like it or not, the majority of this country at least claims to be religious. But, the minority uses the ACLU and lawyers to ram their non-belief down the throats of the majority.

Hence, we cannot have prayer, Christmas songs, ten commandments, etc., but we CAN teach our kids Darwinism, evolution, etc.

IMO, that's not right. In a perfect world, they should teach both and allow people to choose for themselves which they believe.

As it is now, they teach kids that evolution and Darwin is the absolute truth, and are not allowed to even introduce the possiblility of creationism.

I tell my kids that when they're in school, taking tests, etc., they have to answer according to what the textbook says, so they won't fail. But... I also tell them that it's incorrect, and that they know the truth, and they should not forget it, regardless of what some textbook says.

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Old 10-19-2006, 06:51 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by cka203 on 10-19-2006 at 07:35 AM
Wow - I'm not sure which direction this thread is heading now.

I'm starting to think we might not be able to keep it civil.

In an effort to keep it so, I will say that I personally tend to agree with steelerfan's comments. I will also say that some other posters, whose position differs from mine, have some valid points (i.e., would I be upset if my kid's school wanted to teach them the Koran, etc.).

JMO
Well, this was my earlier point. You can't say "it's nondenominational" when it's the BIBLE. As you stated, you wouldn't want it done if it was the Koran, or Buddhism, or whatever, but it's the Bible, so it's OK. That implys that the school is sponsoring/approving a particular religion, which should NOT be done in a public school. Why not, as I stated before, a class where different religions are explained and discussed, so the students can talk about what they learn with their parents, rather than what appears in this case to be only one being shown as the "right" one? As stated before, there are private schools for that.
I don't think is makes the protesting mother intolerant - her kid is given ONE choice about a religion, not being discussed even, but "memorize Bible quotes", OR sit around and do nothing for an hour? I would be upset also. It seems the only people who think this is OK in a public school are those who study the bible themselves, yet you admit if it was ANYTHING ELSE YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT. Does this make you intolerant?

I only cut your quote short to save space, the whole Darwinism vs creationism is a whole other debate.
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:04 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenB on 10-19-2006 at 07:51 AM
Well, this was my earlier point. You can't say "it's nondenominational" when it's the BIBLE. As you stated, you wouldn't want it done if it was the Koran, or Buddhism, or whatever, but it's the Bible, so it's OK. That implys that the school is sponsoring/approving a particular religion, which should NOT be done in a public school. Why not, as I stated before, a class where different religions are explained and discussed, so the students can talk about what they learn with their parents, rather than what appears in this case to be only one being shown as the "right" one? As stated before, there are private schools for that.
I don't think is makes the protesting mother intolerant - her kid is given ONE choice about a religion, not being discussed even, but "memorize Bible quotes", OR sit around and do nothing for an hour? I would be upset also. It seems the only people who think this is OK in a public school are those who study the bible themselves, yet you admit if it was ANYTHING ELSE YOU WOULDN'T LIKE IT. Does this make you intolerant?

I only cut your quote short to save space, the whole Darwinism vs creationism is a whole other debate.

I understand what you're saying, and even agree, to a point.

My point is, if they're gonna teach evolution, why not creation?

Do we really want our kids taught that we evolved from apes or something, without acknowledging that there's also another theory, in that we were created by a higher being?

Why not both, and let each decide for themselves?

That's really all I'm getting at.
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:14 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by cka203 on 10-19-2006 at 08:04 AM
I understand what you're saying, and even agree, to a point.

My point is, if they're gonna teach evolution, why not creation?

Do we really want our kids taught that we evolved from apes or something, without acknowledging that there's also another theory, in that we were created by a higher being?

Why not both, and let each decide for themselves?

That's really all I'm getting at.
Well that comes down to science vs faith.
I don't know the specifics but I think there are people trying to scientifically prove creationism, who don't accept Darwinism as science.
Personally I don't believe faith (i.e,, creationsim) should be taught in public school, because there are so many ideas of faith, and as I stated, it doesn't appear it can be done without condoning one or the other.
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:43 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 01:32 AM
[BHe came to me when he was about 8 or 9, and he asked me if I believed in God. I told him "no." "I don't believe in God, either" he said. "Hang on, there" I said. "You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe. I don't want you thinking the way I do, just because. I want you to explain it to me. Why don't you believe in God?" He looked at me and said "the thing that doesn't make sense to me is... who made God?" [/B]
Kids do say the damndest things...

When you think about it, the same question could be asked about the scientific version of the creation of the universe:
"Who lit the fuse on the 'Big Bang?'"

When my son was about that age, he and I were on a backpacking trip. He was kind of stressing out because he was starting to have serious doubts about the whole God thing. He asked me what I believed in.

I basically told him that, while I don't believe that any person or religion has the inside track on the truth, I was keeping myself open to the possibility that there is something greater than us who may have a purpose for us.

He asked me how any intelligent person could believe in something without some kind of proof.

I then came up with DKM's parable of the salmon. It went something like this:

If you look at every society, every nation, every tribe of humans that ever existed, you'll find one thing in common. They all found it important to gather together, and to create rituals, to pay homage to a higher being or beings. In virtually all societies, the worship of "god" has been the central focus of their culture.

Now, the study of evolution teaches us that organisms that waste energy on useless functions will have less energy for the "usefull" functions such as finding food and creating offspring. Therefore, useless functions will be weeded out by natural selection.

So, my only conclusion is that "religion" has been somehow important in the overall long term survival of our species.

But how?

Perhaps the answer is beyond our ability to understand.

By chance, we happened to be hanging out by a stream when the conversation took place. I said that maybe we're like the salmon in that stream. For as long as there have been salmon, the adults migrate up the stream, spawn, and die. The salmon that hatch from those eggs make their way to the ocean until they're ready to do the same thing their parents did.

Now, say you had a particularly "intelligent" salmon swimming in the ocean with his buddies. He questions the whole purpose of swimming up that stream. He can't see the logic of it, so he decides to stay right where he is.

As his friends swim up that stream, never to return, the fish that stayed behind congratulates himself for the fact that he's so much smarter than all the other salmon. Of course, those smart genes will never get a chance to make it into the next generation of salmon. Which is fortunate, since the species would die out if all the salmon got to be that smart.

So maybe it's possible that this instinct to gather together, create rituals, and pray to a higher being is as important to our survival as a species as the salmon's instinct to return to their stream to spawn? And maybe we don't have any better chance than the salmon of understanding why.

Maybe it's a sign that my offsprings' brain is as twisted as my own, but he actually thought I had a good point. Which kinda surprised the hell out of me, because I wasn't quite sure there was any point....

Last edited by dropKickMurphy; 10-19-2006 at 07:47 AM..
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:28 AM   #86
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I can only speak for myself here, I believe that there are zealots who would disagree with me, but I have no objection to Creationism being taught in public schools, but NOT as science.

Scientific Method requires you to make observations and fit a hypothesis to the observed phenomenon. Then others look at your conclusion and either agree or disagree based on the evidence. EVERYTHING is a theory.

Gravity is a theory, but it seems to fit the observation. Quantum physics is a theory but we can build nuclear power plants (and bombs) by applying the theory.

In the end the theory of evolution fits the observed phenomenon of nature, It may be right, wrong or partially right but it fits what we observe.

Creation Science asks me to disavow fossil evidence of extinct species and various dating methods that all agree that life on earth is millions of years old as a trick of the devil (or a test of the lord). This is the realm of faith. You can believe it if you choose in spite of the observed phenomenon, and you may be right, but you can't call it science.
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:29 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Steve-o on 10-19-2006 at 01:16 AM
This is where the brilliance of our founding fathers comes into play. We do not live in a true democracy, and for that, I am thankful. In a true democracy, would white men have ever voted to allow women to vote? Blacks?

Our country was designed to always protect the rights of the minority. If enough Christians take over Congress and vote to make the Christianity the official religion of the U.S., we have the supreme court to determine that move is UnConstitutional. If enough anti-religious people took over and outlawed Christianity, we have the supreme court to determine that UnConstitutional.

If one man among us is not free, none of us are free.

This was the brilliance of our founding fathers. Our founding fathers who were Deists and Atheists.


The founding fathers had nothing, zilch, nada to do with Black people or women voting. The Amendments to the Constitution after the Civil War, are what gave Black people the right to vote, and it took another Amendment, years later, for Women.

The founding fathers did a lot, but rights for Minorities and Women isn't among them.
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:30 AM   #88
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One quick note on Darwin (and yes, I heard this on the History Channel ;)

Darwin never said that evolution explains how life started, just how it has changed (evolved). People, usually those who believe in creationism, jump on Darwin as if he's saying there's no god.
Now, I don't know what Darwin did or didn't believe, but the idea that species have evolved seems pretty hard to dispute. How we "started" is. While I don't personally believe in "Adam and Eve", I respect the opinion of those who do.

As to why creationism isn't taught in public schools... my feeling is that teaching something from one particular religion would be in appropriate because in any given classroom you could have Christians, muslims, budhists, atheists, etc. If we truly live in a "Free country", we can't use public schools to teach what one particular religion believes. Now, I honestly don't know what other religions have as the equivalent to "Adam and Eve", but assuming there's something like "Muhammad and Islama in the oasis of eden". Would we teach that version of creationism in public schools? Probably not.
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:36 AM   #89
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Darth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Darth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museumDarth Despot should have their sex organs bronzed for posterity and put in a museum
Actually Islam is an Abrahamic religion and believes in Adam and Eve. I think there are some minor differences in the details but I could be wrong.
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proceeding across a battlefield,
my father now dead,
I am up front to draw the fire.
I look back,
and one of those I was to protect has fallen."

Nicholas Wolterstorff, Lament for a Son (1987)
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Old 10-19-2006, 09:16 AM   #90
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I like that "salmon" story, honestly, it makes a fair point. However, Salmon probably can't spawn in salt water, or some other issue, thus any "smart" salmon that stayed in the ocean couldn't pass on their smart genes (as you correctly stated).

Hey... maybe there are salmon that say "Screw this" and don't swim upstream every year.
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