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Old 12-08-2017, 09:48 PM   #1
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I'm so happy to have a coach that knows the value of Special Teams



Our opponents have started 2 drives in our territory, we've started 18 in theirs. One of the reasons we're so dominant.

Allen is a solid punter, and Ghost has had his struggles in place kicking but one place he hasn't is on kickoffs. We've missed Slater since he's been injured so much, especially at the beginning of the year.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:57 PM   #2
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:43 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSPatsFan View Post


Our opponents have started 2 drives in our territory, we've started 18 in theirs. One of the reasons we're so dominant.

Allen is a solid punter, and Ghost has had his struggles in place kicking but one place he hasn't is on kickoffs. We've missed Slater since he's been injured so much, especially at the beginning of the year.
Wait just a minute - perspective is everything.

1. "2 drives started in Patriots territory" may be more about Brady & our O than about our STs & punter.
2. Ryan Allen's current ranking - 32nd as of wk 13. Dead last.
3. Our STeams current ranking - 10th as of wk 13.
4. Gostkowski's current ranking - 5th as of wk 13. He's been solid.

Not what we expected, is it

Quote:
10.

(previous ranking: 11)

Ancillary players have been making an impact on the Patriots for the entire Bill Belichick era, and 2017 is no different. Brandon King (eight total tackles), Nate Ebner (8), Matthew Slater (five) and Johnson Bademosi (five) have all graded well, helping the Patriots overcome the fact that Ryan Allen has the lowest grade among punters so far this season.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...hrough-week-13
I agree with having good STs units but sometimes I get frustrated that too many dedicated special teams players take roster spots & force the Pats to cut some good or promising players. P, K, + Slater as gunner/captain - those are the ones necessary and the ones most teams have. BB goes further & this year a lot further. He has a long snapper plus 4 more who may as well be dedicated STs players, Brandon Bolden & Brandon King for example, but have a roster position designated (RB/S), wink-wink. Nate Ebner is another one; he's a S but I don't see him taking over for Chung or Harmon any time soon. Ebner is a S for depth & (slow) development.

Is BB's way better? Most other teams have STs positions filled strictly by roster players who have STs versatility. That saves other teams the 3-4 roster spots to use on players who may contribute to their O or D. This is the 1st year I can remember that having so many dedicated STs players has bitten BB in the ass a bit.

Otoh, BB's philosophy of having dedicated STs players puts extra importance on the STs units keeping them more focused and productive. I see that side of it, too.

Then you have players like Jonathan Jones who made the team as a STs player and who developed into a pretty solid CB so that's a good thing. Ok, but you also have players like Cyrus Jones who was graded by PFF as the worst STs return man in the league last year and the 2nd worst of the last 10 years. Cyrus came out of college as a CB/Return Specialist who was drafted higher than he should have been (2nd round) because the emphasis was on 'return specialist'. After 2 years does anyone seriously think Cyrus Jones was a good investment? When STs draftees bust they bust BIG because their positional value is low. So that's a really bad thing.

I suggest a compromise
In the end, I think coaching & having a great P & K are the most important factors in making a good STs unit. Having too many dedicated STs players costs the team in other areas. As well as they've played, I'd be fine with P/K/1-2 gunners/LS which means I'd be fine if the 'Bolden's' weren't on the team next year. BB can fill their spots with positional players who have the versatility to play STs as well - Bademosi & JJones for example.

We're ranked 10th so it's easy to see the other way works fine.
I actually didn't expect Bolden to make the team this year.
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Old 12-09-2017, 12:54 PM   #4
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BB could focus on players that can play their position and also have ST's skills...

Multi-tool players...that has a nice ring to it.
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Old 12-09-2017, 03:17 PM   #5
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I would imagine Allen punting often from the 50 or less affects his net.

Edit: Also, fvck Charlie Casserly.

Last edited by bmooney54; 12-09-2017 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:00 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevss454 View Post
Wait just a minute - perspective is everything.

1. "2 drives started in Patriots territory" may be more about Brady & our O than about our STs & punter.
2. Ryan Allen's current ranking - 32nd as of wk 13. Dead last.
3. Our STeams current ranking - 10th as of wk 13.
4. Gostkowski's current ranking - 5th as of wk 13. He's been solid.

Not what we expected, is it

I agree with having good STs units but sometimes I get frustrated that too many dedicated special teams players take roster spots & force the Pats to cut some good or promising players. P, K, + Slater as gunner/captain - those are the ones necessary and the ones most teams have. BB goes further & this year a lot further. He has a long snapper plus 4 more who may as well be dedicated STs players, Brandon Bolden & Brandon King for example, but have a roster position designated (RB/S), wink-wink. Nate Ebner is another one; he's a S but I don't see him taking over for Chung or Harmon any time soon. Ebner is a S for depth & (slow) development.

Is BB's way better? Most other teams have STs positions filled strictly by roster players who have STs versatility. That saves other teams the 3-4 roster spots to use on players who may contribute to their O or D. This is the 1st year I can remember that having so many dedicated STs players has bitten BB in the ass a bit.

Otoh, BB's philosophy of having dedicated STs players puts extra importance on the STs units keeping them more focused and productive. I see that side of it, too.

Then you have players like Jonathan Jones who made the team as a STs player and who developed into a pretty solid CB so that's a good thing. Ok, but you also have players like Cyrus Jones who was graded by PFF as the worst STs return man in the league last year and the 2nd worst of the last 10 years. Cyrus came out of college as a CB/Return Specialist who was drafted higher than he should have been (2nd round) because the emphasis was on 'return specialist'. After 2 years does anyone seriously think Cyrus Jones was a good investment? When STs draftees bust they bust BIG because their positional value is low. So that's a really bad thing.

I suggest a compromise
In the end, I think coaching & having a great P & K are the most important factors in making a good STs unit. Having too many dedicated STs players costs the team in other areas. As well as they've played, I'd be fine with P/K/1-2 gunners/LS which means I'd be fine if the 'Bolden's' weren't on the team next year. BB can fill their spots with positional players who have the versatility to play STs as well - Bademosi & JJones for example.

We're ranked 10th so it's easy to see the other way works fine.
I actually didn't expect Bolden to make the team this year.
Don't forget that both Ebner and Slater were injured at the start of the season, so BB had to find people to play their roles. Most likely multiple people, I don't recall who filled in on each of the four ST's for them.

Also, Edelman being out meant they were down their prime PR option. Danny was coming off an injury and if he faltered, who was his backup?

I'm not disputing the fact that BB has more ST dedicated players on his 53 than most NFL teams, simply that there were reasons why this year he may have had more than he has in the past.
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Old 12-09-2017, 06:57 PM   #7
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Hmmmm. I think I'll go with the way the GOAT coach does it.
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Old 12-10-2017, 07:40 AM   #8
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I am just happy Ghost has looked more like Ghost this year. Allen has been pretty awful IMO but he has had a ton of punts from close to the 50 so his net is bad as a result.

I am a fan of BBs approach to STs. I can see both sides of having less dedicated STs players but over the years it seems our STs wins us several games a year so hard to argue.
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Old 12-10-2017, 07:50 AM   #9
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Ryan Allen's off ~4 yds/punt this year. I think his contract's almost up - time for a new lefty punter. Shelf life's usually only about 3 years before it's time to trade-in for a new one, so he's done pretty well for himself.

Allen's ventured into 'liability' territory this year. You can win a Super Bowl with a shitty punter, but it sure helps if you have a good one.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
Don't forget that both Ebner and Slater were injured at the start of the season, so BB had to find people to play their roles. Most likely multiple people, I don't recall who filled in on each of the four ST's for them.

Also, Edelman being out meant they were down their prime PR option. Danny was coming off an injury and if he faltered, who was his backup?

I'm not disputing the fact that BB has more ST dedicated players on his 53 than most NFL teams, simply that there were reasons why this year he may have had more than he has in the past.
Oh, I didn't forget. Btw, you're making my point with those 2 dedicated STers. BB found Bademosi easily who has filled in nicely and also played some limited DB.

Dion Lewis has become our #1RB. He's also our #1KReturner.
As we saw in the NO game, behind Amendola for PR are Dorsett, McCourty and Chung. All 5 players fill important roles on the team. None are dedicated STs players. There's no reason for a dedicated STer when a positional player can do it. It saves a roster spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSPatsFan View Post
Hmmmm. I think I'll go with the way the GOAT coach does it.
Me, too. At least the way he's done it in the past. This year has been different and that's my point. We have too many players who only do STs this year.

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I am just happy Ghost has looked more like Ghost this year. Allen has been pretty awful IMO but he has had a ton of punts from close to the 50 so his net is bad as a result.

I am a fan of BBs approach to STs. I can see both sides of having less dedicated STs players but over the years it seems our STs wins us several games a year so hard to argue.
I agree. "2 drives inside Patriots territory" is about Brady and the O more than it is about Allen. PFF's grading system doesn't emphasize yds/punt - hang time & placement are higher on their grading scale. Allen's placement of short kicks has been substandard this year even for him.

I won't get into your assertion that STs wins us several games a year. I'll simply ask if it's the dedicated STers - Bolden, King, Slater, Ebner - who won us those games.

Bottom line: Given the choice, I'd rather have 1 player fill both roles for roster economy. Other teams do it & Belichick does it, too. But he's done it less this year.
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:41 AM   #11
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:02 AM   #12
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Ryan Allen's off ~4 yds/punt this year. I think his contract's almost up - time for a new lefty punter. Shelf life's usually only about 3 years before it's time to trade-in for a new one, so he's done pretty well for himself.

Allen's ventured into 'liability' territory this year. You can win a Super Bowl with a shitty punter, but it sure helps if you have a good one.
Could be indicative of the gunner injuries this year. Both Slater and Ebner missing significant time.
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