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Old 05-14-2017, 03:30 PM   #31
BostonTim
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Do not go gentle into that good night
Dylan Thomas, 1914 - 1953

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,


Sailing to Byzantium


That is no country for old men. The young
In one another's arms, birds in the trees
---Those dying generations---at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unaging intellect.

II
An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing
For every tatter in its mortal dress,
Nor is there singing school but studying
Monuments of its own magnificence;
And therefore I have sailed the seas and come
To the holy city of Byzantium.

III
O sages standing in God's holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing-masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.

IV
Once out of nature I shall never take
My bodily form from any natural thing,
But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make
Of hammered gold and gold enamelling
To keep a drowsy Emperor awake;
Or set upon a golden bough to sing
To lords and ladies of Byzantium
Of what is past, or passing, or to come.

William Butler Yeats




The Tower
BY WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS
I

What shall I do with this absurdity —
O heart, O troubled heart — this caricature,
Decrepit age that has been tied to me
As to a dog's tail?
Never had I more
Excited, passionate, fantastical
Imagination, nor an ear and eye
That more expected the impossible —
No, not in boyhood when with rod and fly,
Or the humbler worm, I climbed Ben Bulben's back
And had the livelong summer day to spend.
It seems that I must bid the Muse go pack,
Choose Plato and Plotinus for a friend
Until imagination, ear and eye,
Can be content with argument and deal
In abstract things; or be derided by
A sort of battered kettle at the heel.

II

I pace upon the battlements and stare
On the foundations of a house, or where
Tree, like a sooty finger, starts from the earth;
And send imagination forth
Under the day's declining beam, and call
Images and memories
From ruin or from ancient trees,
For I would ask a question of them all.

Beyond that ridge lived Mrs. French, and once
When every silver candlestick or sconce
Lit up the dark mahogany and the wine,
A serving-man, that could divine
That most respected lady's every wish,
Ran and with the garden shears
Clipped an insolent farmer's ears
And brought them in a little covered dish.

Some few remembered still when I was young
A peasant girl commended by a song,
Who'd lived somewhere upon that rocky place,
And praised the colour of her face,
And had the greater joy in praising her,
Remembering that, if walked she there,
Farmers jostled at the fair
So great a glory did the song confer.

And certain men, being maddened by those rhymes,
Or else by toasting her a score of times,
Rose from the table and declared it right
To test their fancy by their sight;
But they mistook the brightness of the moon
For the prosaic light of day –
Music had driven their wits astray –
And one was drowned in the great bog of Cloone.

Strange, but the man who made the song was blind;
Yet, now I have considered it, I find
That nothing strange; the tragedy began
With Homer that was a blind man,
And Helen has all living hearts betrayed.
O may the moon and sunlight seem
One inextricable beam,
For if I triumph I must make men mad.

And I myself created Hanrahan
And drove him drunk or sober through the dawn
From somewhere in the neighbouring cottages.
Caught by an old man's juggleries
He stumbled, tumbled, fumbled to and fro
And had but broken knees for hire
And horrible splendour of desire;
I thought it all out twenty years ago:

Good fellows shuffled cards in an old bawn;
And when that ancient ruffian's turn was on
He so bewitched the cards under his thumb
That all but the one card became
A pack of hounds and not a pack of cards,
And that he changed into a hare.
Hanrahan rose in frenzy there
And followed up those baying creatures towards —

O towards I have forgotten what — enough!
I must recall a man that neither love

Nor music nor an enemy's clipped ear

Could, he was so harried, cheer;
A figure that has grown so fabulous
There's not a neighbour left to say
When he finished his dog's day:
An ancient bankrupt master of this house.

Before that ruin came, for centuries,
Rough men-at-arms, cross-gartered to the knees
Or shod in iron, climbed the narrow stairs,
And certain men-at-arms there were
Whose images, in the Great Memory stored,
Come with loud cry and panting breast
To break upon a sleeper's rest
While their great wooden dice beat on the board.

As I would question all, come all who can;
Come old, necessitous, half-mounted man;
And bring beauty's blind rambling celebrant;
The red man the juggler sent
Through God-forsaken meadows; Mrs. French,
Gifted with so fine an ear;
The man drowned in a bog's mire,
When mocking muses chose the country wench.

Did all old men and women, rich and poor,
Who trod upon these rocks or passed this door,
Whether in public or in secret rage
As I do now against old age?
But I have found an answer in those eyes
That are impatient to be gone;
Go therefore; but leave Hanrahan,
For I need all his mighty memories.

Old lecher with a love on every wind,
Bring up out of that deep considering mind
All that you have discovered in the grave,
For it is certain that you have
Reckoned up every unforeknown, unseeing
Plunge, lured by a softening eye,
Or by a touch or a sigh,
Into the labyrinth of another's being;

Does the imagination dwell the most
Upon a woman won or woman lost?
If on the lost, admit you turned aside
From a great labyrinth out of pride,
Cowardice, some silly over-subtle thought
Or anything called conscience once;
And that if memory recur, the sun's
Under eclipse and the day blotted out.

III

It is time that I wrote my will;
I choose upstanding men
That climb the streams until
The fountain leap, and at dawn
Drop their cast at the side
Of dripping stone; I declare
They shall inherit my pride,
The pride of people that were
Bound neither to Cause nor to State,
Neither to slaves that were spat on,
Nor to the tyrants that spat,
The people of Burke and of Grattan
That gave, though free to refuse –
Pride, like that of the morn,
When the headlong light is loose,
Or that of the fabulous horn,
Or that of the sudden shower
When all streams are dry,
Or that of the hour
When the swan must fix his eye
Upon a fading gleam,
Float out upon a long
Last reach of glittering stream
And there sing his last song.
And I declare my faith:
I mock Plotinus' thought
And cry in Plato's teeth,
Death and life were not
Till man made up the whole,
Made lock, stock and barrel
Out of his bitter soul,
Aye, sun and moon and star, all,
And further add to that
That, being dead, we rise,
Dream and so create
Translunar Paradise.
I have prepared my peace
With learned Italian things
And the proud stones of Greece,
Poet's imaginings
And memories of love,
Memories of the words of women,
All those things whereof
Man makes a superhuman
Mirror-resembling dream.

As at the loophole there
The daws chatter and scream,
And drop twigs layer upon layer.
When they have mounted up,
The mother bird will rest
On their hollow top,
And so warm her wild nest.

I leave both faith and pride
To young upstanding men
Climbing the mountain side,
That under bursting dawn
They may drop a fly;
Being of that metal made
Till it was broken by
This sedentary trade.

Now shall I make my soul,
Compelling it to study
In a learned school
Till the wreck of body,
Slow decay of blood,
Testy delirium
Or dull decrepitude,
Or what worse evil come –
The death of friends, or death
Of every brilliant eye
That made a catch in the breath –
Seem but the clouds of the sky
When the horizon fades;
Or a bird's sleepy cry
Among the deepening shades.

Last edited by BostonTim; 05-14-2017 at 03:40 PM..
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May your heart always be joyful
May your song always be sung
And may you stay forever young
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:31 PM   #32
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Hey Bill, I scanned your previous posts and see you are a pretty young person. You were a college student in 2014. Maybe you still are? Also at the most you're appear to be agnostic.

Chances are you haven't found a soulmate yet and its bumming you out.

I agree today's world is scary. The answer to all problems is love. Start philosophizing and acting on that word and your misery will improve. Go do some fun things. Use your intellect turning negative into positive results...Turn any lemons you come across into lemonade, etc, etc. You are too young to think about doom! God bless.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloyouis View Post
The rest of us are not intelligent nor aware enough to be as miserable as you?

You definitely could use help. I hope you choose to get some.

Life can be so thoroughly enjoyable when you have family and finds to share it with. You are struggling mightily. What do you have to lose by seeing a therapist? And if you don't and things go further down hill:

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/help-yourself/

There isn't a trace of sarcasm in this post. 100% genuine.
Some things are broken beyond repair.

The last time I went to a counselor, I got in a fight with him because he was being fkn redic.

I have tried going to a psychiatrist. Called multiple places. "Sorry sir, doctor so and so isnt accepting new patients" and/or "sorry, you have to see a primary care physician first before doctor so and so will see you." It's a fkn circus just to get in and see one. I have to go out of my way just to see one. And then what if that one is bad like the last counselor I went to? My life is a fkn shitshow.

If your life is good, you are blessed, and I am glad for you. I truly am. However, that is NOT the case for me and some people. Which again, is why its better not to create people. I wish my parents hadnt created me.

You mentioned friends and family.

My family sucks. Most of them are evil, psychotic, selfish, and dysfunctional.

The friends I have had, one by one, have started falling by the wayside as I get fed up with their bull$hit. I go out of my way to treat them with compassion, dignity, respect, fairness, honesty, etc, but they wont do the same in return.

Finding other people as friends?

Most people, and I mean most, are self-absorbed, psychotic, manipulative, fake, selfish individuals. And I notice it. So yes, I am more aware and intelligent, because if people were as aware and as intelligent as I am, they would notice it, too. But most people are friggin clueless. They only notice it when it really bites them in the ass, and then after a period of retreat, they forget about it, and go right back into the stupid friggin rat race and subject themselves to the bull$hit all over again.

Last edited by BillForever; 05-14-2017 at 04:05 PM..
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:50 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnOldTroll View Post
Hey Bill, I scanned your previous posts and see you are a pretty young person. You were a college student in 2014. Maybe you still are? Also at the most you're appear to be agnostic.

Chances are you haven't found a soulmate yet and its bumming you out.

I agree today's world is scary. The answer to all problems is love. Start philosophizing and acting on that word and your misery will improve. Go do some fun things. Use your intellect turning negative into positive results...Turn any lemons you come across into lemonade, etc, etc. You are too young to think about doom! God bless.
I appreciate the encouragement.

That said, love is the last thing I need right now.

Most women (and men for that matter) are psychotic, self-absorbed, and selfish. Even ones that you wouldnt think would be that way, are. You just have to spend enough time around them and ask the right questions to find out their true nature.
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Old 05-14-2017, 03:53 PM   #35
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TipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoonTipRoast causes furry woodland creatures and birds to sing to them like a Disney cartoon
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonTim View Post

Sailing to Byzantium

That is no country for old men. The young
In one another's arms, birds in the trees
---Those dying generations---at their song,
The salmon-falls, the mackerel-crowded seas,
Fish, flesh, or fowl commend all summer long
Whatever is begotten, born, and dies.
Caught in that sensual music all neglect
Monuments of unaging intellect.
That Yeats poem has spawned two SF/Fantasy works of which I'm aware (and possibly others).

Sailing to Byzantium, by Robert Silverberg

and

Sailing to Sarantium, by Guy Gavriel Kay

Silverberg's work is a SF novella, and takes its inspiration from the first verse of the poem.

Kay's work is the first book of a diptych, and tells the story of a mosaicist.

Both are excellent, as are your choice of poems for this thread.
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:01 PM   #36
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I still have yet to have anyone answer my question of why they would bring someone into the world knowing full well that person could reach a point where they dont want to be here anymore but cant bring themselves to commit suicide because they dont want to hurt those they would leave behind, or they are physically incapable of doing so (blindness, paralyzed from the neck down, etc).

Everyone wants to focus on everything BUT my damn question. And I think I know why that is. They dont want to have to come to terms with the fact that it is messed up to do that.

You people bring children into the world because YOU WANT to have children.

You want children, and you will bring children into this world, potential consequences be damned.

So friggin selfish.

Last edited by BillForever; 05-14-2017 at 04:10 PM..
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillForever View Post
I still have yet to have anyone answer my question of why they would bring someone into the world knowing full well that person could reach a point where they dont want to be here anymore but cant bring themselves to commit suicide because they dont want to hurt those they would leave behind, or they are physically incapable of doing so (blindness, paralyzed from the neck down, etc).

Everyone wants to focus on everything BUT my damn question. And I think I know why that is. They dont want to have to come to terms with the fact that it is messed up to do that.

You people bring children into the world because YOU WANT to have children.

You want children, and you will bring children into this world, potential consequences be damned.

So friggin selfish.
For someone who falsely claims to be intelligent, you continually show what an ignoramus you are about life.

Clearly you have had terrible experiences in your life, and in your ultimate arrogance you project the idea that life must therefore suck towards all human beings. Know what? That's not the case for everyone, and your brutish insistence that it is just makes you appear to be the least philosophical person in the world.

Philosophy is the search for truth, not your pathologically pessimistic insistence that human beings have no value.

You argue that if no human beings existed then there would be a lack of terrible things.

But you ignore the opposite argument as well. Without mankind there is no creation of aesthetic beauty. Hell, you claim to be a Patriots fan; clearly it has gone over your head that watching sports allows people to view that aesthetic beauty. See that team celebrating? That's not beautiful? That's not worthwhile? Then why TF are you a Patriots fan?

As someone who actually has dedicated years to studying philosophy and logic, I appreciate your sad attempt to disregard what many in this world do. In one sense, I agree that if anyone is a truly terrible person, that person should not procreate. However, most people have children to share the joys of existence . I have two wondering children ; will I be able to shield them from every evil? No, but they will be taught how to face life with curiosity, love, intelligence, and pride. They will also have certain economic and social advantages than perhaps many children do not, but hey, that's part of why I've worked so hard during my life.

So, sorry, Mr. Arrogant, I and others who are clearly more self aware will continue to create life with a hope for tomorrow. Who knows, perhaps my children will save the world somehow , either ecologically , politically, medically, etc. But your loser "philosophy" will be no aid to them.

I agree with others; get help. Part of me wonders if your brain simply hasn't hit its highest degree of maturity yet, which for most males is around 25. Good luck regardless.
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You shall listen to all sides and filter them from your self. " Walt Whitman, Song of Myself
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:20 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatsFan09 View Post
For someone who falsely claims to be intelligent, you continually show what an ignoramus you are about life.

Clearly you have had terrible experiences in your life, and in your ultimate arrogance you project the idea that life must therefore suck towards all human beings. Know what? That's not the case for everyone, and your brutish insistence that it is just makes you appear to be the least philosophical person in the world.

Philosophy is the search for truth, not your pathologically pessimistic insistence that human beings have no value.

You argue that if no human beings existed then there would be a lack of terrible things.

But you ignore the opposite argument as well. Without mankind there is no creation of aesthetic beauty. Hell, you claim to be a Patriots fan; clearly it has gone over your head that watching sports allows people to view that aesthetic beauty. See that team celebrating? That's not beautiful? That's not worthwhile? Then why TF are you a Patriots fan?

As someone who actually has dedicated years to studying philosophy and logic, I appreciate your sad attempt to disregard what many in this world do. In one sense, I agree that if anyone is a truly terrible person, that person should not procreate. However, most people have children to share the joys of existence . I have two wondering children ; will I be able to shield them from every evil? No, but they will be taught how to face life with curiosity, love, intelligence, and pride. They will also have certain economic and social advantages than perhaps many children do not, but hey, that's part of why I've worked so hard during my life.

So, sorry, Mr. Arrogant, I and others who are clearly more self aware will continue to create life with a hope for tomorrow. Who knows, perhaps my children will save the world somehow , either ecologically , politically, medically, etc. But your loser "philosophy" will be no aid to them.

I agree with others; get help. Part of me wonders if your brain simply hasn't hit its highest degree of maturity yet, which for most males is around 25. Good luck regardless.
First, there was no need for you to start insulting me and using name calling. It's not the end of the world. I'll be fine.

You suggesting maybe I havent matured is ironic in light of your personal attacks and name calling. That's not very mature.

Not everyone's life is going to be bad, but you CANNOT gurantee that at least one child that you create will not have a horrible experience. What happens if they do have a horrible experience? What are you going to do? Apologize, cry, grieve, but ultimately there wont be anything you can do to fix it. If you had never created them, they never would have had a horrible experience.

Not having children is the more loving and selfless course of action. Bringing children into the world is selfish. You dont HAVE to bring them into the world. You bring them into the world because you WANT to have children.

When you bring children into the world, you expose them to the risk of great suffering. Why did you do that to your two children?

You expose them to the risk of being stuck in a metaphorical prison where they dont want to be here anymore, but they cant bring themselves to commit suicide because unlike you, they are selfless and dont want to hurt those they would leave behind.

Yeah, there's help, but theres no gurantee that will work. What if it doesnt? You gotta think of the what ifs.

Some people suffer until their dying day. What is the point of that?? If you dont respond to anything else in this post, please answer that question.

1. Pain is a stronger feeling than pleasure

2. The absence of pleasure is not bad so long as it isnt a deprivation

3. The presence of pain is bad

Think of any future children you might have as potential persons. If you never create them, you arent depriving them of pleasure by not creating them because they would have to exist in order for them to be deprived of pleasure. Once you bring them into exstence, you expose them to the risk of feeling pain.

Why expose them to the risk of pain (which you do when you bring them into existence) so you dont deprive them of pleasure when you arent even depriving them of pleasure by not creating them?

It's a really simple calculus. No possibility of pain and no possibility of pleasure > than a possibility of pain and a possibility of pleasure.

As for what you said about the Patriots, them winning is awesome, but it has no objective meaning. If I had a choice, I would make humanity go away, even if it meant no more Patriots, if it would prevent stuff like what happened in the 80s with the Contras. The Contras went into villages in Nicaragua, and forced children to watch while they cut the skin of their father's face off and castrated him, and cut their mother's breasts off. And then sometimes, "for variety", they would reverse that and mutilate the children while the parents were forced to watch. The US government funded them. The Contras were part of a CIA destabilization operation.

That kind of stuff alone is reason enough to let humanity go the way of the dinosaurs.

If humanity would go extinct, nothing like that would ever happen again. But no, to you, the possibility of stuff like that happening is a price worth paying in order to keep humanity around.

It's not worth the price. If the only way for the Patriots to exist is for stuff like what happened with the Contras to be possible, then I would let humanity go extinct. And, I actually am playing a role in humanity going away by not having children. Maybe im the mature, selfless one, and its you who needs to mature.

Last edited by BillForever; 05-14-2017 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillForever View Post
Some things are broken beyond repair.

The last time I went to a counselor, I got in a fight with him because he was being fkn redic.

I have tried going to a psychiatrist. Called multiple places. "Sorry sir, doctor so and so isnt accepting new patients" and/or "sorry, you have to see a primary care physician first before doctor so and so will see you." It's a fkn circus just to get in and see one. I have to go out of my way just to see one. And then what if that one is bad like the last counselor I went to? My life is a fkn shitshow.

If your life is good, you are blessed, and I am glad for you. I truly am. However, that is NOT the case for me and some people. Which again, is why its better not to create people. I wish my parents hadnt created me.

You mentioned friends and family.

My family sucks. Most of them are evil, psychotic, selfish, and dysfunctional.

The friends I have had, one by one, have started falling by the wayside as I get fed up with their bull$hit. I go out of my way to treat them with compassion, dignity, respect, fairness, honesty, etc, but they wont do the same in return.

Finding other people as friends?

Most people, and I mean most, are self-absorbed, psychotic, manipulative, fake, selfish individuals. And I notice it. So yes, I am more aware and intelligent, because if people were as aware and as intelligent as I am, they would notice it, too. But most people are friggin clueless. They only notice it when it really bites them in the ass, and then after a period of retreat, they forget about it, and go right back into the stupid friggin rat race and subject themselves to the bull$hit all over again.
What if I told you that there really is a place where you can feel entirely different about things than you do now? A place where you can be aware, intelligent and glad to be alive?

Very few people feel the way you do. Many of the world's most intelligent people managed also to be aware and happy.

If you have ruled out suicide, and in your own mind are condemned to a life of misery while you wait to die, you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying to change things. You might as well go see the primary care doctor and tell him how you feel. He most assuredly will set you up with a psychiatrist. If for no other reason than to keep his/her license.

What have you got to lose?
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:03 PM   #40
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Bill, when you interact with your friends and family, this view you are expressing here, no wonder, its YOUR BS, you have to come to terms with that. They think of you exactly what you wrote of them. Get out of your head.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:09 PM   #41
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What if I told you that there really is a place where you can feel entirely different about things than you do now? A place where you can be aware, intelligent and glad to be alive?

Very few people feel the way you do. Many of the world's most intelligent people managed also to be aware and happy.

If you have ruled out suicide, and in your own mind are condemned to a life of misery while you wait to die, you have absolutely nothing to lose by trying to change things. You might as well go see the primary care doctor and tell him how you feel. He most assuredly will set you up with a psychiatrist. If for no other reason than to keep his/her license.

What have you got to lose?
I'm going to. Im just weary and tired of the horsecrap. This discussion is a good example. I try to use simple logic, and ask direct questions, but people ignore that and instead turn it into a shrink session. I have issues, that is for damn sure, but that has nothing to do with whether or not antinatalism is sound.

Thanks for caring

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Old 05-14-2017, 06:12 PM   #42
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Bill, when you interact with your friends and family, this view you are expressing here, no wonder, its YOUR BS, you have to come to terms with that. They think of you exactly what you wrote of them. Get out of your head.
Ummm excuse me?
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:18 PM   #43
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For someone who falsely claims to be intelligent, you continually show what an ignoramus you are about life.

Clearly you have had terrible experiences in your life, and in your ultimate arrogance you project the idea that life must therefore suck towards all human beings. Know what? That's not the case for everyone, and your brutish insistence that it is just makes you appear to be the least philosophical person in the world.

Philosophy is the search for truth, not your pathologically pessimistic insistence that human beings have no value.

You argue that if no human beings existed then there would be a lack of terrible things.

But you ignore the opposite argument as well. Without mankind there is no creation of aesthetic beauty. Hell, you claim to be a Patriots fan; clearly it has gone over your head that watching sports allows people to view that aesthetic beauty. See that team celebrating? That's not beautiful? That's not worthwhile? Then why TF are you a Patriots fan?

As someone who actually has dedicated years to studying philosophy and logic, I appreciate your sad attempt to disregard what many in this world do. In one sense, I agree that if anyone is a truly terrible person, that person should not procreate. However, most people have children to share the joys of existence . I have two wondering children ; will I be able to shield them from every evil? No, but they will be taught how to face life with curiosity, love, intelligence, and pride. They will also have certain economic and social advantages than perhaps many children do not, but hey, that's part of why I've worked so hard during my life.

So, sorry, Mr. Arrogant, I and others who are clearly more self aware will continue to create life with a hope for tomorrow. Who knows, perhaps my children will save the world somehow , either ecologically , politically, medically, etc. But your loser "philosophy" will be no aid to them.

I agree with others; get help. Part of me wonders if your brain simply hasn't hit its highest degree of maturity yet, which for most males is around 25. Good luck regardless.
Excellent response. Agree totally. I can't help be a little angry at all of this. For him to have dumped this crap "Antinatalism" here, on Mother's day, a day when we honor the incredible importance of the mother in human society and more importantly to honor and cherish our own mothers and the mother's of our own children? Incredibly selfish and rude. JMO.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:35 PM   #44
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I'm going to. Im just weary and tired of the horsecrap. This discussion is a good example. I try to use simple logic, and ask direct questions, but people ignore that and instead turn it into a shrink session. I have issues, that is for damn sure, but that has nothing to do with whether or not antinatalism is sound.

Thanks for caring
Actually, the response here is pretty darn normal. You don't perceive it that way, but that is just part of your issue I think.

You are a young man. You may indeed be highly intelligent, but trust me when I tell you that you that there is so much MORE to learn at your age. Experience (which takes time) eventually becomes so much more valuable when you look at the world.

I had to wander around pretty confused and angry myself until I met the right person (at age 27!). When that happens for you, your view of the world WILL change. Your motivation WILL change. Your desire to be the joy, you believe is so lacking in the world, for someone else WILL change. Then you will understand better what some of us are trying to tell you. Just words to you from me I realize. Experience (mine) is talking to you.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."

- Benjamin Franklin


Who knows when it will happen so in the meantime, do everything you can to get to that time where help and experience can kick in.

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Old 05-14-2017, 06:44 PM   #45
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Excellent response. Agree totally. I can't help be a little angry at all of this. For him to have dumped this crap "Antinatalism" here, on Mother's day, a day when we honor the incredible importance of the mother in human society and more importantly to honor and cherish our own mothers and the mother's of our own children? Incredibly selfish and rude. JMO.
Excellent response? No. Absolutely not. He started using personal attacks and name calling and then had the nerve to suggest I havent finished maturing. He is the one who needs to mature.

Truth is truth. No one asked you to like it.

You obviously think the possibility of people suffering greatly is a price worth paying.

Maybe you would think differently if your children were forced to watch while your face was peeled off and you were castrated, and their mother had her breasts cut off. I have mentioned that issue at least twice in this thread, but everyone is ignoring it. I think there are two possible reasons why that is. One, that issue is so horrific and evil that people cant believe that happened. Two, they dont want to come to terms with the reality that our government funded those monsters.

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