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Old 11-05-2008, 12:33 PM   #1
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$3 TRILLION "Oops!"

Why I keep pointing out that government should be regulating, not manipulating the markets. Their incompetence is costing the American people $3 Trillion (yes, with a "t") plus interest.

Quote:
Your $3 trillion bailout

Washington is waging war on the financial crisis. Mr. Obama: You have to see it through.

By David Goldman, CNNMoney.com staff writer
November 5, 2008: 11:54 AM ET
<!--startclickprintexclude-->
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Congratulations Mr. President-elect. Now get to work. It's a little more than 10 weeks until Jan. 20, and there's an economy in dire need of fixing.

Here's the executive summary: The economy's cracks started showing a year ago. Home prices plummeted and foreclosures soared. Financial institutions carrying mortgage-backed securities on their books took an enormous hit. Banks wanted to take fewer risks, so lending to businesses and consumers froze up.

Then things really broke down in September. The government took over mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The collapse of Lehman Brothers sent investors worldwide into a cold sweat.

To combat the crisis, Congress and the current administration have taken a number of steps aimed at boosting the housing market - providing critical liquidity to financial institutions and saving businesses from collapse.

Thus far, the government has pledged as much as $3 trillion for the crisis, although the ultimate cost to the federal budget won't be known for years to come since much of that money is effectively investment.

"You'd have to go back to the New Deal to find something similar to what the government has done to stop the credit crisis," said Jay Bryson, economist for Wachovia. "It's because the alternative was unthinkable: If it failed, there was potential for another Great Depression."

So, Mr. President-elect, we thought it might be helpful for you to have a primer on the actions your government has taken so far. Of course, you have plenty of smart advisers who could have done this for you. But we wanted to make sure you hit the ground running. We counted 16 separate categories of actions...

More...
When are we going to get it? The government isn't going to fix your problems. YOU have to fix your problems. Listening to and believing any politician that promises to fix your problems with the government is just plain foolishness.

Why?

Because the government is the source of many of your problems. It takes your hard earned money away from you, then spends it in the least efficient way possible. The credit crisis and market meltdown? There's one thing in common between George Bush, Barney Frank, Alan Greenspan, and Fannie Mae.

They are all government, and they all screwed up, which is costing you and I and our kids and maybe their kids a whote lotta $$$.

The answer is getting government out of places it doesn't belong, and only in places where it needs to be: providing basic needs and services such as transportation, defense, and safety nets for those who are unable to fend for themselves, while providing minimal (but appropriate) regulatory oversight in order to ensure quality, safety, information, and fair play.

The government has screwed us all over, people...this time to the tune of three trillion dollars. When are we going to stop looking to politicians to fix our problems? Politicians are the government, and while most have good intentions, they are (by default) part of the problem and not the solution.


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Old 11-05-2008, 12:46 PM   #2
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It's funny, I had a pretty good debate with my wife last night on some of that topic. I simply do not believe that people who consider themselves above the system (and I've seen enough to make me believe most politicians do) can ever fix that system.

Why is Social Security such a threatened mess? Because politicians don't have to worry about it. How can they really be expected to help those issues that they never have to face? Why should they worry too much about gas prices when they can take a chauffer driven vehicle on tax payers' dime so they don't have to walk 8 blocks? Why should they really try too hard to fix the economy when they're going to get their salary for life?
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Old 11-05-2008, 12:52 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moebius View Post
It's funny, I had a pretty good debate with my wife last night on some of that topic. I simply do not believe that people who consider themselves above the system (and I've seen enough to make me believe most politicians do) can ever fix that system.

Why is Social Security such a threatened mess? Because politicians don't have to worry about it. How can they really be expected to help those issues that they never have to face? Why should they worry too much about gas prices when they can take a chauffer driven vehicle on tax payers' dime so they don't have to walk 8 blocks? Why should they really try too hard to fix the economy when they're going to get their salary for life?
legit points i never even thought about
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Old 11-05-2008, 02:28 PM   #4
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Here's a number for you:

$10,563,467,352,713

That's our national debt big Oops. And that is TWICE what it was when Bush came into office. I agree, gov't should be made smaller, much smaller. Each persons portion of this debt is $34,000+ and growing. A family of four, that's $132,000.

Talk about big oops!
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grog View Post
Here's a number for you:

$10,563,467,352,713

That's our national debt big Oops. And that is TWICE what it was when Bush came into office. I agree, gov't should be made smaller, much smaller. Each persons portion of this debt is $34,000+ and growing. A family of four, that's $132,000.

Talk about big oops!
Add another trillion to the pile in the next 6 months. The Treasury's already announced it.
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Old 11-05-2008, 04:32 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grog View Post
Here's a number for you:

$10,563,467,352,713

That's our national debt big Oops. And that is TWICE what it was when Bush came into office. I agree, gov't should be made smaller, much smaller. Each persons portion of this debt is $34,000+ and growing. A family of four, that's $132,000.

Talk about big oops!
And this is why Republicans have been defeated in the last 2 election cycles. They decided to become Democrats.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:14 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmack View Post

When are we going to get it? The government isn't going to fix your problems. YOU have to fix your problems. Listening to and believing any politician that promises to fix your problems with the government is just plain foolishness.

Why?

Because the government is the source of many of your problems. It takes your hard earned money away from you, then spends it in the least efficient way possible. The credit crisis and market meltdown? There's one thing in common between George Bush, Barney Frank, Alan Greenspan, and Fannie Mae.

They are all government, and they all screwed up, which is costing you and I and our kids and maybe their kids a whote lotta $$$.

The answer is getting government out of places it doesn't belong, and only in places where it needs to be: providing basic needs and services such as transportation, defense, and safety nets for those who are unable to fend for themselves, while providing minimal (but appropriate) regulatory oversight in order to ensure quality, safety, information, and fair play.

The government has screwed us all over, people...this time to the tune of three trillion dollars. When are we going to stop looking to politicians to fix our problems? Politicians are the government, and while most have good intentions, they are (by default) part of the problem and not the solution.
Just a few comments on this.

A) I sincerely do not believe a libertarian economic system works these days. There have been several examples of modern libertarian states that have seen their economies crumble under the weight of deregulation, etc. America's economy has to shift from a production economy to a knowledge-based (creative) economy (and is doing this). Libertarian economic policies have been empirically proven to stiffle innovation which is a cornerstone in modern economic growth.

B) Just a question on where the government need to be. In order to secure the equal opportunity for everyone, wouldn't it be necessary for every child to have the same opportunity to excel in school (or in other venues) that this would warrant government involvement in securing at the very least basic schooling of the same quality for everyone?

C) In continuation of this, would part of the discretionary budget then be better spent used on an improvement in public schools rather than overseas on military operations (mind you the overseas operations of the military is taking up approximately 20% of the discretionary spending).

D) As we've already agreed upon in another thread, perfect competition is an impossible ideal and thus sufficient regulation of sectors are needed by competent government bodies.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson View Post
D) As we've already agreed upon in another thread, perfect competition is an impossible ideal and thus sufficient regulation of sectors are needed by competent government bodies.
What the heck is that?
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:24 PM   #9
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What the heck is that?
Perfect competition is not practically possible.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson View Post
Perfect competition is not practically possible.
Yeah, I got that part, but I want to know what it is?
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:38 PM   #11
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Yeah, I got that part, but I want to know what it is?
Short cutting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition
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Old 11-05-2008, 08:24 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson View Post
Just a few comments on this.

A) I sincerely do not believe a libertarian economic system works these days. There have been several examples of modern libertarian states that have seen their economies crumble under the weight of deregulation, etc. America's economy has to shift from a production economy to a knowledge-based (creative) economy (and is doing this). Libertarian economic policies have been empirically proven to stiffle innovation which is a cornerstone in modern economic growth.
A truly Libertarian economic system? I agree, that isn't the "best" policy, which is why I call for minimal regulation. I'm curious to hear your examples of libertarian states that have seen their economy crumble, and how the United States would suffer the same fate given the gross amounts of wealth and information available in this country.

Quote:
B) Just a question on where the government need to be. In order to secure the equal opportunity for everyone, wouldn't it be necessary for every child to have the same opportunity to excel in school (or in other venues) that this would warrant government involvement in securing at the very least basic schooling of the same quality for everyone?
Basic levels of schooling for everyone, yes, but that's the state and local governments' responsibility, not the feds.

Think of a pyramid. The closer the government is to you, the larger and more responsible it is (local, state, federal). The further away, the smaller. Right now, the pyramid is upside down.

Quote:
C) In continuation of this, would part of the discretionary budget then be better spent used on an improvement in public schools rather than overseas on military operations (mind you the overseas operations of the military is taking up approximately 20% of the discretionary spending).
No, federal funds don't go to education, thus they couldn't go there instead of overseas military operations. Furthermore, I (and most Libertarians) believe in a "poke the bear" military defense mentality. Unlike "true" libertarians, though, I do support finishing out the war in Iraq.

Quote:
D) As we've already agreed upon in another thread, perfect competition is an impossible ideal and thus sufficient regulation of sectors are needed by competent government bodies.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Just make sure they're small. (i.e. not Fannie and Freddie owning or guaranteeing >50% of the mortgages)
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:08 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by anderson View Post

This looks at an economy from the pov of a welfare ideal. This leads to unrealistic assumptions about economics. In the real world uncertainty is rampant in an economy. However if mainstream economists accepted this reality their models of efficient socialism would be useless.

Thank you for defining it. Now I'll complete my reading of your earlier post and respond.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anderson View Post
Just a few comments on this.

A) I sincerely do not believe a libertarian economic system works these days. There have been several examples of modern libertarian states that have seen their economies crumble under the weight of deregulation, etc.
Such as?

Quote:
America's economy has to shift from a production economy to a knowledge-based (creative) economy (and is doing this). Libertarian economic policies have been empirically proven to stiffle innovation which is a cornerstone in modern economic growth.
Do you have any examples? Because I know of NO society that has ever had real libertarian or wholly libertarian policies for such empirical studies to be conducted except for in the early days of our republic. The 19th century was hardly a laissez-faire ideal.

However, there are examples of within markets and periods where libertarian principles lead to increased entrepreneurship and new technologies. Like the break up of ma bell.

Whenever I hear the word "empirical" used in an economic argument...it's usually some command and control type economics being defended: mercantilism and/or socialisms of various kinds.



Quote:
B) Just a question on where the government need to be. In order to secure the equal opportunity for everyone, wouldn't it be necessary for every child to have the same opportunity to excel in school (or in other venues) that this would warrant government involvement in securing at the very least basic schooling of the same quality for everyone?
That's looking at economics from a welfare or socialist ideal. No one is ever going to take advantage of all available opportunities even if equal.

Quote:
C) In continuation of this, would part of the discretionary budget then be better spent used on an improvement in public schools rather than overseas on military operations (mind you the overseas operations of the military is taking up approximately 20% of the discretionary spending).
Empirical studies show govt funded education has resulted in lower literacy with billions thrown at it and many attempts to reform.

Quote:
D) As we've already agreed upon in another thread, perfect competition is an impossible ideal and thus sufficient regulation of sectors are needed by competent government bodies.
I answered this in my previous post.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BradyLady12 View Post
Such as?



Do you have any examples? Because I know of NO society that has ever had real libertarian or wholly libertarian policies for such empirical studies to be conducted except for in the early days of our republic. The 19th century was hardly a laissez-faire ideal.

However, there are examples of within markets and periods where libertarian principles lead to increased entrepreneurship and new technologies. Like the break up of ma bell.

Whenever I hear the word "empirical" used in an economic argument...it's usually some command and control type economics being defended: mercantilism and/or socialisms of various kinds.




That's looking at economics from a welfare or socialist ideal. No one is ever going to take advantage of all available opportunities even if equal.


Empirical studies show govt funded education has resulted in lower literacy with billions thrown at it and many attempts to reform.


I answered this in my previous post.
a) Most notable example is probably New Zealand in the 80s. I will have to brush up, but I believe countries in both Africa and South America had a healthy dose of "graduate student libertarianism" injected in them in the 80s.

b) The break up of ma bell was the result of a government sanction. One of the biggest critiques of laissez faire is that it leads to economic standstills (as a result of imperfect competition leading to lack of incentive to improve).

c) My question about public schooling wasn't out of personal belief, but rather whether or not libertarianism is fundamentally flawed if everyone is not afforded the same opportunities at birth. I am sure there are tons of flaws with current implementation of public schooling.
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