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Old 12-16-2017, 12:51 PM   #496
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
So for the last 150 years science has been proving the existence of God with each discovery. In other words science is "discovering" what God already made.
Science studies nature, you just presuppose that a god made nature. That's a presupposition that you have, not one that science has.


So exactly which parts of Genesis are metaphors again, and which parts aren't? It gets awfully confusing when you guys can't even agree on that answer among yourselves.
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:56 PM   #497
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Originally Posted by PatsFan09 View Post
Most actual scientists believe in evolution .

Show me the evidence that God created Adam and Eve.

And then explain why we have a tailbone.
Even Francis Collins, the evangelical head of the Human Genome Project, freely admits that even if we had never unearthed a single fossil, the genetic evidence alone clinches the deal for evolution and common ancestry.

Human Chromosome #2 is more than enough all by itself to prove the point. It's a specific piece of evidence predicted beforehand by evolutionary theory, and there's absolutely no reason for it to exist under the creation model.

Multiply that one thing by 10,000, and you're approaching the level of evidence we have in favor of the proposition.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:08 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by OJ's Glove View Post
Even Francis Collins, the evangelical head of the Human Genome Project, freely admits that even if we had never unearthed a single fossil, the genetic evidence alone clinches the deal for evolution and common ancestry.

Human Chromosome #2 is more than enough all by itself to prove the point. It's a specific piece of evidence predicted beforehand by evolutionary theory, and there's absolutely no reason for it to exist under the creation model.

Multiply that one thing by 10,000, and you're approaching the level of evidence we have in favor of the proposition.
HC #2 is detailed in the following vid, along with lots of other nuggets.

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Old 12-16-2017, 01:12 PM   #499
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Originally Posted by OJ's Glove View Post
Science studies nature, you just presuppose that a god made nature. That's a presupposition that you have, not one that science has.

.
Yes. That is what I have been saying. And some scientists also believe in a divine creator precisely because their areas of study and discovery brought them to that conclusion.

Here is one example:

“When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.”
-Frank Tipler (‘The Physics Of Immortality.’) Frank is a mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University.


And here is one more:

“I remember how frustrated I became when, as a young atheist, I examined specimens under the microscope. I would often walk away and try to convince myself that I was not seeing examples of extraordinary design, but merely the product of some random, unexplained mutations.”
-Rick Oliver (‘Designed to Kill in a Fallen World.’) Rick Oliver has his Ph.D. in Biology from the University of California, Irvine. He is a member of the American Federation of Herpetoculturalists, the California Science Teachers Association, and the New York Academy of Science.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:20 PM   #500
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Here is one more:

“It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.”
“I now believe there is a God…I now think it [the evidence] does point to a creative Intelligence almost entirely because of the DNA investigations. What I think the DNA material has done is that it has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements to work together.”
“…we have all the evidence we need in our immediate experience and that only a deliberate refusal to “look” is responsible for atheism of any variety.”


-Antony Flew (‘There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.’) Antony was a world leading atheist philosopher who belonged to the analytic and evidentialist schools of thought. He was known as a strong advocate of atheism, arguing that one should presuppose atheism until empirical evidence of a God surfaces. He also criticised the idea of life after death, the free will defence to the problem of evil, and the meaningfulness of the concept of God. In 2003 he was one of the signers of the Humanist Manifesto. In 2004 he stated an allegiance to deism, more specifically a belief in the Aristotelian God. He stated that in keeping his lifelong commitment to go where the evidence leads, he now believed in the existence of a god.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:20 PM   #501
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
HC #2 is detailed in the following vid, along with lots of other nuggets.
Yeah, that's a good one.

There are a lot of questions that have no good answers if you assume Divine Creation.

Let's assume you want to create a physical universe in the first place (because, whatever), and you then have perfect freedom to make it in any way that you want. No limits - it's God, right?

Okay...

If humans are created from scratch as placental mammals, why does the human genome still have the obsolete genetic instructions for making egg yolk like reptiles? Why do we have to eat and breathe to survive, and to do it by killing and consuming other living things? Why weren't we created with green photosynthetic skin, so we could get our energy directly from the sun, like plants do? Why do we have to breathe air at all, so we're constantly in danger of suffocation, choking or drowning? Why do our eating and breathing tubes intersect each other, instead of being totally separate? Does this god want to increase the chances that we choke to death while eating?

And so on and so on, times a thousand.

None of what I just said can be apologetically excused by appealing to the "fallen world" idea. These are design issues in the human body from the get-go, in the way that we're told that this god wanted it to look and behave.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:25 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
Yes. That is what I have been saying. And some scientists also believe in a divine creator precisely because their areas of study and discovery brought them to that conclusion.

Here is one example:

“When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.”
-Frank Tipler (‘The Physics Of Immortality.’) Frank is a mathematical physicist and cosmologist, holding a joint appointment in the Departments of Mathematics and Physics at Tulane University.
You're describing the exact opposite of what OJ said. A presupposition is a belief formed before examining the evidence. If Tipler is to be believed, he formed his conclusion after examining the evidence.

Has Tipler published his findings in any peer reviewed journals? If the scientific method leads so inexorably to a theistic conclusion, why do we see the exact opposite happen more often?
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:26 PM   #503
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Mazz, you're continual trumpeting that some scientists are Deists or Theists doesn't deal with the issue in the way you think it does.

I could just as easily bring up countless examples of theists who changed their minds in an atheistic direction after examining the scientific evidence, and how it didn't match up with the faith-based systems they had been taught.

This isn't about finding anecdotes of certain individuals who agree with your view.

The issue isn't why some scientists are religious, but why are the body of scientists worldwide (across religious traditions) so much more atheistic than their counterparts in the general population. The members of the AAAS are 90% atheist. Why is that?
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:31 PM   #504
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Originally Posted by OJ's Glove View Post
Mazz, you're continual trumpeting that some scientists are Deists or Theists doesn't deal with the issue in the way you think it does.

I could just as easily bring up countless examples of theists who changed their minds in an atheistic direction after examining the scientific evidence, and how it didn't match up with the faith-based systems they had been taught.

This isn't about finding anecdotes of certain individuals who agree with your view.

The issue isn't why some scientists are religious, but why are the body of scientists worldwide (across religious traditions) so much more atheistic than their counterparts in the general population. The members of the AAAS are 90% atheist. Why is that?
I am not trying to prove anything just simply stating my point of view of a divine creator which is held by some in the scientific community. And again, my main point is faith and science are not opposed for the Christian at all. That has been the thrust of my posts. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:36 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
I am not trying to prove anything just simply stating my point of view of a divine creator which is held by some in the scientific community. And again, my main point is faith and science are not opposed for the Christian at all. That has been the thrust of my posts. Nothing more, nothing less.
Given that you've rejected both evolution and the big bang for purely religious reasons, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:42 PM   #506
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And again, my main point is faith and science are not opposed for the Christian at all. That has been the thrust of my posts. Nothing more, nothing less.
I'm willing to stipulate that you think your version of Christianity is compatible with science.

There are millions of Christian literalists who don't think that, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that they think you're doing Christianity wrong, and that your unwillingness to accept Genesis 1-11 literally is a form of lukewarm, wordly backsliding.

My own view is the scientific enterprise isn't really a friend of the religious one. Mainly because what is called the "supernatural" simply isn't a part of the scientific paradigm, because the evidence for it is terrible, it violates Occam's Razor, and there needs to be a way to investigate the so-called "supernatural" which allows it to be falsifiable. But there doesn't seem to be any way to do that.
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Old 12-16-2017, 01:46 PM   #507
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Originally Posted by OJ's Glove View Post
I'm willing to stipulate that you think your version of Christianity is compatible with science.

There are millions of Christian literalists who don't think that, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that they think you're doing Christianity wrong, and that your unwillingness to accept Genesis 1-11 literally is a form of lukewarm, wordly backsliding.

My own view is the scientific enterprise isn't really a friend of the religious one. Mainly because what is called the "supernatural" simply isn't a part of the scientific paradigm, because the evidence for it is terrible, it violates Occam's Razor, and there needs to be a way to investigate the so-called "supernatural" which allows it to be falsifiable. But there doesn't seem to be any way to do that.
Where did I say I don't accept Genesis 1-11? I do. When I say I accept scientific discovery. I accept discovery not theory. Again, everything that science has discovered points to a divine creator. Some scientists believe their discoveries points to evolution/big bang/cells on a swamp, etc. but they don't, they point to a divine creator. As I said, I believe science at its essence is just discovering what God already made.
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:01 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
Where did I say I don't accept Genesis 1-11? I do. When I say I accept scientific discovery. I accept discovery not theory. Again, everything that science has discovered points to a divine creator. Some scientists believe their discoveries points to evolution/big bang/cells on a swamp, etc. but they don't, they point to a divine creator. As I said, I believe science at its essence is just discovering what God already made.
You have got to be kidding me. Maybe in your world, but in the real world, everything, and I mean everything, points to science. You just don't want to accept it because of the whole god thing.

I choose not to believe in magical mystery men or fantasy.

Anyone want to pipe in on the new banned words mandated from the WH for any publications by the CDC, like "science-based" and "evidence-based"?
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:25 PM   #509
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You have got to be kidding me. Maybe in your world, but in the real world, everything, and I mean everything, points to science. You just don't want to accept it because of the whole god thing.

I choose not to believe in magical mystery men or fantasy.

Anyone want to pipe in on the new banned words mandated from the WH for any publications by the CDC, like "science-based" and "evidence-based"?
I'm still looking into the latter part, but I'll chime in if I have thoughts.

With regard to the former, for the sake of clarity it should be pointed out that science isn't the outcome, it's the process. You use the scientific method to test and understand reality.

Nor is it ideal to substitute "natural" in for science in your comment, since any extant god (or ghosts or spirits or souls, etc.) would be as "natural" as anything else. It would just be a currently undiscovered part of the natural world.

Instead, I'll ask this: what experimental results indicate a god's existence? And what result from that experiment would have falsified the god hypothesis?
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Old 12-16-2017, 02:25 PM   #510
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Where did I say I don't accept Genesis 1-11? I do. When I say I accept scientific discovery. I accept discovery not theory..
Can you just answer questions instead of obfuscating?

Is Genesis literally true or not?

It's a simple question that should have a straightforward answer. Can you give one?
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