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Old 04-19-2017, 10:31 PM   #31
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I hope Dion Lewis enjoys his final season in New England.
They have not lost a game he has played in so I say "Keep it rolling"
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:25 AM   #32
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Bullshit and bullshit.

Seymour was NEVER our best pass rusher, and his price easily surpassed his performance.

Collins might be the most athletic LBer, but talented? No. Give me a player in that position that has lesser physical talent but a better brain(Bruschi, all day every day).

The only thin ice is in your mind.
Seymour was at the time he was traded. And your statement about Collins is making my point. Bill values talent + brains + consistency. He just said so himself when he was interviewed by CNBC.

There is no question of Gronk's talent or football smarts BUT his durability has always been the issue.

I mean do you really think it was lost on Bill that the Pats who had Gronk for all of 5 games when he was fully healthy last year won the Super Bowl without him? Or the fact that he has had THREE back surgeries (that we know of) AND his contract will have the biggest cap hits after this season? Or how about the trading of Cooks? A dynamic, take the top off the defense who will need to be paid two years from now?

Like I said, if Gronk is able to play this season injury free then I think he is still with us next year BUT he will be on an incentive based contract. No way Bill pays $11 and $12 mil in cap hits for a guy that misses chunks of seasons.

Now if he gets hurt again then I think Bill trades him while he could get something for him.
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:56 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mazz22 View Post
Seymour was at the time he was traded. And your statement about Collins is making my point. Bill values talent + brains + consistency. He just said so himself when he was interviewed by CNBC.

There is no question of Gronk's talent or football smarts BUT his durability has always been the issue.

I mean do you really think it was lost on Bill that the Pats who had Gronk for all of 5 games when he was fully healthy last year won the Super Bowl without him? Or the fact that he has had THREE back surgeries (that we know of) AND his contract will have the biggest cap hits after this season? Or how about the trading of Cooks? A dynamic, take the top off the defense who will need to be paid two years from now?

Like I said, if Gronk is able to play this season injury free then I think he is still with us next year BUT he will be on an incentive based contract. No way Bill pays $11 and $12 mil in cap hits for a guy that misses chunks of seasons.

Now if he gets hurt again then I think Bill trades him while he could get something for him.
No Seymour wasn't. His cost had CLEARLY surpassed his production and impact. Still a solid player for s couple years, but not anywhere near worth the $ he commanded.

Let's just agree to disagree on Gronk. I don't see him going anywhere.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:33 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
No Seymour wasn't. His cost had CLEARLY surpassed his production and impact. Still a solid player for s couple years, but not anywhere near worth the $ he commanded.

Let's just agree to disagree on Gronk. I don't see him going anywhere.
Sure. We can just agree to disagree.

On Seymour, he had his best season with us in 2008 with 8 sacks and 35 tackles when we traded him to the Raiders. Of course Davis was dumb enough to give us the #1 for him at age 30 with back issues.

I doubt Bill finds a dumb enough team to do that for Gronk but then again there is always the Browns.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:35 AM   #35
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Sure. We can just agree to disagree.

On Seymour, he had his best season with us in 2008 with 8 sacks and 35 tackles when we traded him to the Raiders. Of course Davis was dumb enough to give us the #1 for him at age 30 with back issues.

I doubt Bill finds a dumb enough team to do that for Gronk but then again there is always the Browns.
I'd guarantee there'd be 31 teams that'd give a 1st for Gronk.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:44 AM   #36
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Depends on what you're comparing. Jones and Collins were never the best in the NFL at their position. I doubt Seymour was either. Milloy was just an example of fans who are in love with paste performance not projecting future performance. Every time I hear, "We NEED to keep this guy," I think, so if he goes on IR our season is over?

IIRC Jones had a year left on his deal, right? That BB was unlikely to re-sign? So BB gave up a year of performance for future considerations. I don't recall Seymour's contract status at the time he was traded, but he clearly wasn't the same player as he was earlier, and he was never the best DL or DE in the NFL at any time in his career.

Gronk is unique. I don't know of any TE who was so much better than his peers than anyone else.

As in all things, it will come down to what BB determines is Gronk's future value vs his future cost. Which ever way BB goes, you can be sure that some fans and media will question whether BB did the right thing, while BB will just smirk and keep on amassing competitive teams.
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Old 04-20-2017, 07:50 AM   #37
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Depends on what you're comparing. Jones and Collins were never the best in the NFL at their position. I doubt Seymour was either. Milloy was just an example of fans who are in love with paste performance not projecting future performance. Every time I hear, "We NEED to keep this guy," I think, so if he goes on IR our season is over?

IIRC Jones had a year left on his deal, right? That BB was unlikely to re-sign? So BB gave up a year of performance for future considerations. I don't recall Seymour's contract status at the time he was traded, but he clearly wasn't the same player as he was earlier, and he was never the best DL or DE in the NFL at any time in his career.

Gronk is unique. I don't know of any TE who was so much better than his peers than anyone else.

As in all things, it will come down to what BB determines is Gronk's future value vs his future cost. Which ever way BB goes, you can be sure that some fans and media will question whether BB did the right thing, while BB will just smirk and keep on amassing competitive teams.
You are correct BUT on the flip none of those players missed as many games as Gronk either with the number of major surgeries Gronk has had in just 7 seasons. And to me that is the rub. There is no questioning the guys talent and impact. But what does that matter if he is not on the field and Bill is stuck with $11 mil and $12 cap hits?

There has been a market shift IMO the last two seasons from Bill to ramp up the receivers (Hogan, Mitchell, Cooks) and the RBs (White, Brurkhead, Gisellee) which is move away from the offense being so predicated on Gronk and Edelman for that matter which I LOVE by the way. I think eventually that means Gronk gets moved out in favor of the more dynamic WRs and RBs. He just isn't a player you can count on to be there by season's end and that won't get better with age IMO.
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:49 AM   #38
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I am not sure Bill looks at Gronk affordable after this season when his cap hits will be $11 and $12 mil. If he plays all 16 this year plus the post-season then I think he finishes the contract but if he goes down again this season with any extended type of injury or certainly another back injury then I think Bill moves on or redoes his contract to be incentive based.
Gronk has had two seasons out of 7 that he played less than 10 games. He is a TE who throws himself into the game 100% BB may not be happy with the injuries but he is not about to toss Gronk out. No decent Coach would even consider it.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:11 PM   #39
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Since this thread has turned from James White to Gronk I'll chime in saying I think Cooks will likely be the best thing possible for Gronk. Teams are now gonna have to choose between double teaming Gronk or Cooks, and I have a feeling that will be a tough choice for many teams.
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Old 04-21-2017, 01:28 PM   #40
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I think thye really need to keep Gronk on a pitch count all season long. Maybe let him play 40% of the snaps until the real season starts in January. No guarantee that will help, but makes the odds a little better.
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Old 04-21-2017, 02:36 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
I'd guarantee there'd be 31 teams that'd give a 1st for Gronk.
Will you say the same if he only plays 10 games again this year?
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:27 PM   #42
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Will you say the same if he only plays 10 games again this year?
Yes.

Because when he does play he's a complete game changer.

Every coach knows it.

Stud in the run game, and an absolute impossible matchup receiving.
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:58 PM   #43
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I think thye really need to keep Gronk on a pitch count all season long. Maybe let him play 40% of the snaps until the real season starts in January. No guarantee that will help, but makes the odds a little better.
They have had him on a pitch count since he blew out his knee a few seasons ago. They treated him with kid gloves this past season, letting him rest his hammy until Brady came back and sitting him after the Seattle game and he still went out with a season ending injury. I mean it is football and he is TE. I am not sure what else the team can do. Brady said that Gronk has been seeing his guru but I wonder if it is too late at this point.
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Old 04-21-2017, 06:01 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Patriots-Lifer View Post
Gronk has had two seasons out of 7 that he played less than 10 games. He is a TE who throws himself into the game 100% BB may not be happy with the injuries but he is not about to toss Gronk out. No decent Coach would even consider it.
How many post-seasons has he missed?
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Old 04-21-2017, 10:22 PM   #45
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Yes.

Because when he does play he's a complete game changer.

Every coach knows it.

Stud in the run game, and an absolute impossible matchup receiving.
He'll be 29 before the start of next season.

He's not had a season where he hasn't missed a game due to injury since 2011. He missed the 2013 and 2016 playoffs entirely, and played 1 snap in 2012 before getting injured.

He'll be ~$9mil against the cap in 2018. You're right, every coach knows that when he's healthy he's a 'complete game changer', and maybe you can sucker some team into giving up a king's ransom for him.

When he's healthy, he's a complete game changer. He's never healthy. And the Patriots have proven that they simply don't need him.
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