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Old 03-29-2020, 03:40 PM   #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
Why not compare it to Aids?? Or heart disease? Or pneumonia. How many older people die of that each year? Or drug overdoses? Why the flu? Why don't we compare the flu to those other things?
Because the flu and COVID-19 are both virus based respiratory infections with similar transmission methods.

But for the record, I'm all for using all sorts of things to put the risk posed by COVID-19 in context.

That's the whole point to compare it to the flu, context.

If it is appropriate to shut down any type of public gather for COVID-19, how come that has never been done for the flu or any other similar infectious disease?

Why didn't everything get shut down in 2009 from the H1N1 flu?

The CDC estimates that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died and 8,868-18,306 in the US.

Right now the COVID-19 death toll stands at 33,876, with 2,438 in the US.

So as of today, H1N1 was 4 to 5 times worse than COVID-19.

I don't recall any toilet paper shortages back then.

Context, that's my point.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:12 PM   #662
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From the respected Dr Fauci himself.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMe2002387

On the basis of a case definition requiring a diagnosis of pneumonia, the currently reported case fatality rate is approximately 2%.4 In another article in the Journal, Guan et al.5 report mortality of 1.4% among 1099 patients with laboratory-confirmed Covid-19; these patients had a wide spectrum of disease severity. If one assumes that the number of asymptomatic or minimally symptomatic cases is several times as high as the number of reported cases, the case fatality rate may be considerably less than 1%. This suggests that the overall clinical consequences of Covid-19 may ultimately be more akin to those of a severe seasonal influenza (which has a case fatality rate of approximately 0.1%) or a pandemic influenza (similar to those in 1957 and 1968) rather than a disease similar to SARS or MERS, which have had case fatality rates of 9 to 10% and 36%, respectively.2
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:38 PM   #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
Because the flu and COVID-19 are both virus based respiratory infections with similar transmission methods.

But for the record, I'm all for using all sorts of things to put the risk posed by COVID-19 in context.

That's the whole point to compare it to the flu, context.

If it is appropriate to shut down any type of public gather for COVID-19, how come that has never been done for the flu or any other similar infectious disease?

Why didn't everything get shut down in 2009 from the H1N1 flu?

The CDC estimates that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died and 8,868-18,306 in the US.

Right now the COVID-19 death toll stands at 33,876, with 2,438 in the US.

So as of today, H1N1 was 4 to 5 times worse than COVID-19.

I don't recall any toilet paper shortages back then.

Context, that's my point.
The only thing we can realistically put into context and the one thing we all agree on is that the media is solely culpable for blowing this whole thing out of proportion. But now we are where we are and theere's nothing we can do about that outside of bitch about it.

Outside of that, I stand by sticking with the known numbers. How many people died of respiratory illnesses before January that was not diagnosed as CV-19 when that was the actually cause? How many have it now that aren't/can't be tested? Those are all just guesses. And going by the known numbers, 4.6% have died and only 21% have fully recovered.

Skewed or not, those are scary enough numbers to me to keep the focus on CV-19, not other ailments. That's just me though
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:41 PM   #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
The only thing we can realistically put into context and the one thing we all agree on is that the media is solely culpable for blowing this whole thing out of proportion. But now we are where we are and theere's nothing we can do about that outside of bitch about it.

Outside of that, I stand by sticking with the known numbers. How many people died of respiratory illnesses before January that was not diagnosed as CV-19 when that was the actually cause? How many have it now that aren't/can't be tested? Those are all just guesses. And going by the known numbers, 4.6% have died and only 21% have fully recovered.

Skewed or not, those are scary enough numbers to me to keep the focus on CV-19, not other ailments. That's just me though
Where are you pulling these numbers from?

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
lol.. but sad at the same time

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------



Minimum? You, like most people brainwashed by Trump, have issues dude. Seriously
You guys had 4 years to farm out a prospect and ended up with Sleepy Creepy Joe. Trump will win. Handily. You’ll have 4 more to do better. But the party is split, with momentum gaining in The Squads direction. My prediction is rather than go off the rails with whomever those wingnuts put forth centric Dems will vote for whomever the Republican candidate is, as well as Independents.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:50 PM   #665
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from here

Quote:
How to understand — and report — figures for ‘COVID deaths’

Nuance is crucial — not just in understanding the disease, but for understanding the burden it might place on health services in coming days

Dr John Lee

Every day, now, we are seeing figures for ‘COVID deaths’. These numbers are often expressed on graphs showing an exponential rise. But care must be taken when reading (and reporting) these figures. Given the extraordinary response to the emergence of this virus, it’s vital to have a clear-eyed view of its progress and what the figures mean. The world of disease reporting has its own dynamics, ones that are worth understanding. How accurate, or comparable, are these figures comparing COVID-19 deaths in various countries?

We often see a ratio expressed: deaths, as a proportion of cases. The figure is taken as a sign of how lethal COVID-19 is, but the ratios vary wildly. In the US, 1.8 percent (2,191 deaths in 124,686 confirmed cases), Italy 10.8 percent, Spain 8.2 percent, Germany 0.8 percent, France 6.1 percent, UK 6.0 percent. A 15-fold difference in death rate for the same disease seems odd among such similar countries: all developed, all with good healthcare systems. All tackling the same disease.

You might think it would be easy to calculate death rates. Death is a stark and easy-to-measure end point. In my working life (I’m a retired pathology professor) I usually come across studies that express it comparably and as a ratio: the number of deaths in a given period of time in an area, divided by that area’s population. For example, 10 deaths per 1,000 population per year. So just three numbers:
  1. The population who have contracted the disease
  2. The number dying of disease
  3. The relevant time period

The trouble is that in the COVID-19 crisis each one of these numbers is unclear.

1. Why the figures for COVID-19 infections are a vast underestimate
Say there was a disease that always caused a large purple spot to appear in the middle of your forehead after two days — it would be easy to measure. Any doctor could diagnose this, and national figures would be reliable. Now, consider a disease that causes a variable raised temperature and cough over a period of 5 to 14 days, as well as variable respiratory symptoms ranging from hardly anything to severe respiratory compromise. There will be a range of symptoms and signs in patients affected by this disease; widely overlapping with similar effects caused by many other infectious diseases. Is it COVID-19, seasonal flu, a cold — or something else? It will be impossible to tell by clinical examination.

The only way to identify people who definitely have the disease will be by using a lab test that is both specific for the disease (detects this disease only, and not similar diseases) and sensitive for the disease (picks up a large proportion of people with this disease, whether severe or mild). Developing accurate, reliable, validated tests is difficult and takes time. At the moment, we have to take it on trust that the tests in use are measuring what we think they are.

So far in this pandemic, test kits have mainly been reserved for hospitalized patients with significant symptoms. Few tests have been carried out in patients with mild symptoms. This means that the number of positive tests will be far lower than the number of people who have had the disease. Sir Patrick Vallance, the UK government’s chief scientific adviser, has been trying to stress this. He suggested that the real figure for the number of cases could be 10 to 20 times higher than the official figure. If he’s right, the headline death rate due to this virus (all derived from lab tests) will be 10 to 20 times lower than it appears to be from the published figures. The more the number of untested cases goes up, the lower the true death rate.

2. Why COVID-19 deaths are a substantial over-estimate
Next, what about the deaths? Many UK health spokespersons have been careful to repeatedly say that the numbers quoted in the UK indicate death with the virus, not death due to the virus — this matters. When giving evidence in parliament a few days ago, Prof. Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London said that he now expects fewer than 20,000 COVID-19 deaths in the UK but, importantly, two-thirds of these people would have died anyway. In other words, he suggests that the crude figure for ‘COVID deaths’ is three times higher than the number who have actually been killed by COVID-19. (Even the two-thirds figure is an estimate — it would not surprise me if the real proportion is higher.)

This nuance is crucial *— not just in understanding the disease, but for understanding the burden it might place on the health service in coming days. Unfortunately nuance tends to be lost in the numbers quoted from the database being used to track COVID-19: the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center. It has compiled a huge database, with COVID-19 data from all over the world, updated daily — and its figures are used, world over, to track the virus. This data is not standardized and so probably not comparable, yet this important caveat is seldom expressed by the (many) graphs we see. It risks exaggerating the quality of data that we have.

The distinction between dying ‘with’ COVID-19 and dying ‘due to’ COVID-19 is not just splitting hairs. Consider some examples: an 87-year-old woman with dementia in a nursing home; a 79-year-old man with metastatic bladder cancer; a 29-year-old man with leukemia treated with chemotherapy; a 46-year-old woman with motor neurone disease for two years. All develop chest infections and die. All test positive for COVID-19. Yet all were vulnerable to death by chest infection from any infective cause (including the flu). COVID-19 might have been the final straw, but it has not caused their deaths. Consider two more cases: a 75-year-old man with mild heart failure and bronchitis; a 35-year-old woman who was previously fit and well with no known medical conditions. Both contract a chest infection and die, and both test positive for COVID-19. In the first case it is not entirely clear what weight to place on the pre-existing conditions versus the viral infection — to make this judgement would require an expert clinician to examine the case notes. The final case would reasonably be attributed to death caused by COVID-19, assuming it was true that there were no underlying conditions.

It should be noted that there is no international standard method for attributing or recording causes of death. Also, normally, most respiratory deaths never have a specific infective cause recorded, whereas at the moment we can expect all positive COVID-19 results associated with a death to be recorded. Again, this is not splitting hairs. Imagine a population where more and more of us have already had COVID-19, and where every ill and dying patient is tested for the virus. The deaths apparently due to COVID-19, the COVID trajectory, will approach the overall death rate. It would appear that all deaths were caused by COVID-19 — would this be true? No. The severity of the epidemic would be indicated by how many extra deaths (above normal) there were overall.

3. COVID-19 and a time period
Finally, what about the time period? In a fast-moving scenario such as the COVID-19 crisis, the daily figures present just a snapshot. If people take quite a long time to die of a disease, it will take a while to judge the real death rate and initial figures will be an underestimate. But if people die quite quickly of the disease, the figures will be nearer the true rate. It is probable that there is a slight lag — those dying today might have been seriously ill for some days. But as time goes by this will become less important as a steady state is reached.

Let me finish with a couple of examples. Colleagues in Germany feel sure that their numbers are nearer the truth than most, because they had plenty of testing capacity ready when the pandemic struck. Currently the death rate is 0.8 percent in Germany. If we assume that about one-third of the recorded deaths are due to COVID-19 and that they have managed to test a third of all cases in the country who actually have the disease (a generous assumption), then the death rate for COVID-19 would be 0.08 percent. That might go up slightly, as a result of death lag. If we assume at present that this effect might be 25 percent (which seems generous), that would give an overall, and probably upper limit, of death rate of 0.1 percent, which is similar to seasonal flu.

Let’s look at the UK numbers. As of 9 a.m. on Saturday there were 1,019 deaths and 17,089 confirmed cases — a death rate of 6.0 percent. If one third of the deaths are caused by COVID-19 and the number of cases is underestimated by a factor of say 15, the death rate would be 0.13 percent and the number of deaths due to COVID-19 would be 340. This number should be placed in perspective with the number of deaths we would normally expect in the first 28 days of March — roughly 46,000.

The number of recorded deaths will increase in the coming days, but so will the population affected by the disease — in all probability much faster than the increase in deaths. Because we are looking so closely at the presence of COVID-19 in those who die — as I look at in more detail in my article in this week’s UK edition of The Spectator — the fraction of those who die with COVID-19 (but not of it) in a population where the incidence is increasing, is likely to increase even more. So the measured increase in numbers of deaths is not necessarily a cause for alarm, unless it demonstrates excess deaths — 340 deaths out of 46,000 shows we are not near this at present. Britain has prepared for the worst, but it has not yet happened. The widespread testing of National Health Service staff recently announced may help provide a clearer indication of how far the disease has already spread within the population.

The UK and other governments have no control over how their data is reported, but they can minimize the potential for misinterpretation by making absolutely clear what its figures are, and what they are not. After this episode is over, there is a clear need for an internationally coordinated update of how deaths are attributed and recorded, to enable us to better understand what is happening more clearly, when we need to.

John Lee is a recently retired professor of pathology and a former NHS consultant pathologist. This article was originally published on The Spectator’s UK website.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:59 PM   #666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
The only thing we can realistically put into context and the one thing we all agree on is that the media is solely culpable for blowing this whole thing out of proportion. But now we are where we are and theere's nothing we can do about that outside of bitch about it.

Outside of that, I stand by sticking with the known numbers. How many people died of respiratory illnesses before January that was not diagnosed as CV-19 when that was the actually cause? How many have it now that aren't/can't be tested? Those are all just guesses. And going by the known numbers, 4.6% have died and only 21% have fully recovered.

Skewed or not, those are scary enough numbers to me to keep the focus on CV-19, not other ailments. That's just me though
Read the article I just posted.

There is a difference between dying from COVID-19 and dying with COVID-19.

Look at the statistics from Italy.







If you look at the age distribution and the number of other health conditions present, was it really COVID-19 that killed them?

Or was it the other conditions, and COVID-19 was simply present and any other respiratory stress they had would be the thing that pushed them over the edge, be it a cold, the flu, etc.

The simple fact of the matter is that the #'s are uncertain because people are making assumptions about multiple things, specifically:
  1. How many people are infected
  2. How many people have actually been killed by the virus as opposed to having died with the virus.
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Old 03-29-2020, 06:44 PM   #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
lol.. but sad at the same time

---------- Post added at 02:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------



Minimum? You, like most people brainwashed by Trump, have issues dude. Seriously

BS, it’s asshats like you that have an issue and it’s with reality. We can keep on playing this stupid fucking game all day.


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Old 03-29-2020, 07:23 PM   #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
Because the flu and COVID-19 are both virus based respiratory infections with similar transmission methods.



But for the record, I'm all for using all sorts of things to put the risk posed by COVID-19 in context.



That's the whole point to compare it to the flu, context.



If it is appropriate to shut down any type of public gather for COVID-19, how come that has never been done for the flu or any other similar infectious disease?



Why didn't everything get shut down in 2009 from the H1N1 flu?



The CDC estimates that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died and 8,868-18,306 in the US.



Right now the COVID-19 death toll stands at 33,876, with 2,438 in the US.



So as of today, H1N1 was 4 to 5 times worse than COVID-19.



I don't recall any toilet paper shortages back then.



Context, that's my point.


Fauci thinks between 100,000 and 200,000 Americans alone will die because of this.
We will see, of course.


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Old 03-29-2020, 09:09 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
from here
Great read OPT.

About as informative as it gets.
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Old 03-29-2020, 10:48 PM   #670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
Where are you pulling these numbers from?

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------


https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Do the math

151,766 fully recovered ÷ 722,196 total confirmed cases = 21%
33,976 deaths ÷ 722,196 cases = 4.7% mortality rate. (It was 4.6 this morning)

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight Schrute View Post
Where are you pulling these numbers from?

---------- Post added at 06:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:37 PM ----------



You guys had 4 years to farm out a prospect and ended up with Sleepy Creepy Joe. Trump will win. Handily. You’ll have 4 more to do better. But the party is split, with momentum gaining in The Squads direction. My prediction is rather than go off the rails with whomever those wingnuts put forth centric Dems will vote for whomever the Republican candidate is, as well as Independents.
If Trump wins, it's not because of Biden, it's because this country is fucked and spinning further and further in a downward spiral where the bullshit on the internet is guiding people more than what's happening in front of their eyes. The US is becoming an Anarchist society where more and more people want to "shake things up" instead of use any common sense. That's why he was elected in the first place - Washington needed to be shook up, drain the swamp, and all that other horseshit his followers bought into.

Trump is a fucking disaster. The country is a fucking disaster and people who don't see that are a fucking disaster.
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Old 03-29-2020, 10:52 PM   #671
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Do the math

151,766 fully recovered ÷ 722,196 total confirmed cases = 21%
33,976 deaths ÷ 722,196 cases = 4.7% mortality rate. (It was 4.6 this morning)

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ----------


If Trump wins, it's not because of Biden, it's because this country is fucked and spinning further and further in a downward spiral where the bullshit on the internet is guiding people more than what's happening in front of their eyes. The US is becoming an Anarchist society where more and more people want to "shake things up" instead of use any common sense. That's why he was elected in the first place - Washington needed to be shook up, drain the swamp, and all that other horseshit his followers bought into.

Trump is a fucking disaster. The country is a fucking disaster and people who don't see that are a fucking disaster.
I have a good deal of intellectual arguments against your crap but I'm not gonna waste my time and just say you seem like a good cat but you are pretty well fucked up.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:16 AM   #672
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I have a good deal of intellectual arguments against your crap but I'm not gonna waste my time and just say you seem like a good cat but you are pretty well fucked up.
There is no intellectual argument that supports the Trump presidency. Not one. He's done nothing for you. Not one thing, unless you're in the minority percentage that saw a benefit from his tax program.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:18 AM   #673
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I have a good deal of intellectual arguments against your crap but I'm not gonna waste my time and just say you seem like a good cat but you are pretty well fucked up.
Here's something you may find amusing...

I actually agree with HipKat on the general sentiment of what he said, except that I see Trump as part of the cure.

The neocons and neoliberals are the disaster, the virus, that needs curing.
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:31 AM   #674
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Additionally, I remember distinctly the mantra "character doesn't matter" that the leftist media continued to repeat ad nauseum during the Clinton administration, and I hated it, I railed against it.

Turns out, they were actually right all along.

I mean, we probably had 3 consecutive presidencies with the best character in the latter half of the 20th century....Ford, Carter, and Reagan. These were men of solid character and integrity, irrespective of political bent.

2 out of 3 of those presidents sucked.

It is apparent that good character has nothing to do with good leadership, and we haven't had a president of good character since Reagan, so I can't elaborate any further than that, except to say that even with a run of bad characters, it still doesn't have any bearing on being president.

---------- Post added at 07:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 AM ----------

Saying Trump has ‘blood on his hands’ is media hype, New York is Covid-19 hell because government at EVERY level is broken

In times of crisis, people look to the president for leadership. But the media’s criticism of Donald Trump misses the point: New York is sick not because of POTUS, but because of an endemic rot at every level of government.

New York is sick. The Empire State accounts for more than a third of the US’ Covid-19 cases, and in New York City, more than 30,000 people are infected and nearly 700 dead. With the situation worsening by the day, Democrats and the media have pointed the finger squarely at President Trump.

Trump “will not lift a finger to help his hometown,” NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio told NBC News last Sunday. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the president on Sunday of delaying the transport of vital equipment to cities like New York. “As the president fiddles, people are dying,” she told CNN’s Jake Tapper.

“Do you think there’s blood on the president’s hands?” NBC’s Chuck Todd asked Democratic candidate Joe Biden on Sunday morning.

A bold statement indeed. However, Trump’s response to the virus has been about as thorough as possible, despite his initial hesitation to take the outbreak seriously. His administration has called up military reservists, streamlined federal funding for National Guard deployments, paused evictions and student loan repayments, ordered private companies to manufacture medical equipment, and passed a $2.2 trillion stimulus bill.

That’s not to be confused for sycophancy. Trump could have rolled out mass testing earlier, could have ordered businesses closed earlier, and could have pressed Congress harder for a stimulus bill less packed with cash for Republican corporate bailouts and Democrat funding for arts and refugees.

But the power of the federal government has limits, and hammering Trump for his response neglects the role played by state and local officials

In New York, Governor Andrew Cuomo has portrayed the shortage of ventilators there as a struggle between his administration and Trump’s. “FEMA sent us 400 ventilators. We need 30,000,” Cuomo said at the beginning of the week. However, Cuomo has himself admitted that his figure is a worst-case estimate, and that the state has not yet had to dig into its own stockpile of the devices.

Cuomo, to his credit, is scrambling to secure ventilators for his state – even if it means publicly badgering Trump for more of the US’ limited national stockpile. But New York has been short on the lifesaving devices for years. In a 2015 report, the New York State Department of Health noted that in the event of a pandemic on the scale of the 1918 Spanish Flu, the city would experience a shortage of 15,000 ventilators. Though the paper did not outright recommend that Cuomo’s administration buy more, its publication did not rouse him into action.

Likewise, Mayor de Blasio has pleaded with Trump to deploy the federal military to New York. Last Friday he told the president to “get the hell out of the way and let the military do its job.” Since then, Trump has called up reservists and veterans, sent a hospital ship to New York, and activated the Defense Production Act, while the Army has begun setting up field hospitals in the city.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/124...rus-failure%2F

De Blasio accused Trump on March 15 of “playing catch-up” with the virus. However, two days earlier he told New Yorkers to “go about your lives” as normal. That same week he told a radio host that asymptomatic carriers can’t transmit the disease, refused to cancel the city’s St. Patrick’s Day parade until convinced to, and personally told a woman returning from Italy not to self-isolate. So exhaustive is the list of his missteps that New York Magazine described the week as “the worst stretch of the mayor’s six-year tenure.”

“It has been just a constant struggle to get the mayor to take action,” one City Council member told the magazine.

With a record as patchy as his own, it’s no wonder de Blasio has seized the opportunity to attack Trump on cable TV. Better to swing wildly than absorb punches at home.

Squandered opportunities and clueless leadership can be found at all levels of government. Hours before de Blasio finally ordered public schools closed on March 15, the management at one school in the Bronx warned staff that they could be fired for telling students to stay at home, even after a member of staff tested positive for the deadly virus, the New York Post reported on Saturday. The New York City Department of Education is currently under investigation for forcing several schools in the city to remain open, including one in Brooklyn where five teachers tested positive.

The failures go beyond New York too. After pressing Trump for weeks to declare a national disaster and send aid to her state, and sparring with the president on Twitter, a FEMA spokesman said on Wednesday that Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer had not formally requested a major disaster declaration. Only when news of this delay broke did Whitmer send the request to the federal government, which was approved a day later.

Similar stories have surely played out in other states, and at other levels of government.

When the pandemic eventually abates, Trump will be judged endlessly on his reaction to it. His future in the White House may depend on it. However, the president sits at the top of a massive bureaucratic machine, and his successes and failures shouldn’t overshadow those of the governors, mayors and administrators below.

Defeating Covid-19 depends on a decisive response from every elected official in America, not just the most visible one.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/484438-new-...virus-failure/
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 03-30-2020, 06:32 AM   #675
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Originally Posted by HipKat View Post
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Do the math

151,766 fully recovered ÷ 722,196 total confirmed cases = 21%
33,976 deaths ÷ 722,196 cases = 4.7% mortality rate. (It was 4.6 this morning)

---------- Post added at 10:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 PM ----------


If Trump wins, it's not because of Biden, it's because this country is fucked and spinning further and further in a downward spiral where the bullshit on the internet is guiding people more than what's happening in front of their eyes. The US is becoming an Anarchist society where more and more people want to "shake things up" instead of use any common sense. That's why he was elected in the first place - Washington needed to be shook up, drain the swamp, and all that other horseshit his followers bought into.

Trump is a fucking disaster. The country is a fucking disaster and people who don't see that are a fucking disaster.
Wait.

You were just baby stepped through impeachment, the fisa situation, and Ukraine. China has just had the surface scratched but there’s bigger issues there. Durham is still chugging along. And you don’t think the swamp needs draining?
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