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Old 09-26-2018, 05:12 PM   #31
Baron Samedi
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Has anyone said we shouldn't have the best cyber security money can buy? Seems like an absurd argument to make. The battleship example is a little outdated. While aircraft is what the proposal is about, I doubt that within that framework, drones wouldn't be part of the planning.
Drones are networked. No network, no drones.

Let me put it this way...China has a branch of it;s military called the Strategic Support Force...it is a military branch, and it is designed to be a combined arms branch in support of military operations. It is supposed to do with cyber warfare what we do with bombs...take out infrastructure, destroy communications and transportation. No bombs, just remote military attacks with keyboard soldiers.

We should have that.

Last edited by Baron Samedi; 09-26-2018 at 05:19 PM..
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:28 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Drones are networked. No network, no drones.

Let me put it this way...China has a branch of it;s military called the Strategic Support Force...it is a military branch, and it is designed to be a combined arms branch in support of military operations. It is supposed to do with cyber warfare what we do with bombs...take out infrastructure, destroy communications and transportation. No bombs, just remote military attacks with keyboard soldiers.

We should have that.
What makes you think we dont

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Old 09-26-2018, 06:11 PM   #33
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I agree with Baron insomuch that cyber warfare is becoming a larger part of wars now and in the future, with the eventuality that every country will fully integrate cyber warfare and security as a vital cog in their war machine. Virtually everything modern is already network integrated from ordinance, guidance & targeting systems, telemetry, GPS, communication arrays, transportation etc etc. Take down the network and you severely limit or cripple these, impeding tracking and response times and subjecting your assets in the field to unknown dangers.

And the further we go down that road, with aging out old analog equipment in favor of more modern advancements, and the aging out of soldiers even familiar with performing their duties without these advancements, we eventually have a fighting force nearly entirely reliant on it. That makes it a top of the list priority, one that our enemies can employ to level the playing field without having the kind of budget we have, and one we can't afford to fall behind in.

All that being said, I agree with others who suggest that future wars by and large will still be won with boots on the ground...human capital/assets who use all tools @ their disposal (including cyber warfare, both offensive and defensive) to both take and hold ground and protect our vital infrastructure. It also includes a robust air force, which even in this cyber future, is critical in that mission. Air power and control of the skies is still one of the quickest and most effective ways to bring our military might to bear against our enemies.
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Old 09-26-2018, 06:39 PM   #34
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Baron where do you think China got their military technology from? Hint hacking

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Old 09-27-2018, 06:52 AM   #35
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What makes you think we dont

~Dee~
We don't. Not like the Chinese.

What we have is a patchwork mess of agencies and units that do not coordinate with one another, have different missions and capabilites, and none of them who's mission is specifically to be strategically deployed with combined arms military operations.

It's kind of like having 40 different intelligence and law enforcement departments that don't work with one another or share information.

More is not better. More is actually worse.
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
First, you grossly underestimate dependance on computers and networks today, and particularly in the United States. Every network is a vulnerability. Military, Civilian, infrastructure, all of it.

Second, you cannot engage in warfare without economic power backing it. First, all industrial, financing, transportation, and material ordering is done by computer networks. The days of telegrams and faxes are over.

Third, most currency is digital. Most financial ledgers are done with software and networks. Ergo, most currency can theoretically vanish, making transactions impossible.

Fourth, the modern US military is heavily dependant on digital networks. Not just GPS systems and drones, even coordinated firing, Abrams tanks and Apache units, for example, coordinate fire electronically between the units. It's done automatically with computer networks to maximize effectiveness of salvoes. Artillery units do the same thing, naturally.

Flight control, both civilian and military, are entirely done with networks.

Your thinking is 20th century thinking, decades out of date. A properly trained branch of the military that is dedicated to cyber warfare will wipe the floor with any army, of any size, that is as technologically dependant as the United States, but lacking in any military branch of cyber warfare.

The size of the armies will be irrelevant. The army that dominates technologically will win, and today, that means the ability to dominate networks remotely.

Just as air power dominated the battlefield in WW2, cyber power will dominate WW3.

The "boots on the ground" philosophy only applies to offensive strategies, when you want to capture and occupy foreign territory.

You can destory a modern enemies ability to conduct warfare without ever engaging boots on the ground, with nuclear weapons, or dominating cyber networks remotely to technologically destroy the engine that drives the military.

What can function without computers today?

What can function without computer networks today?

Can the United States function, and conduct war, with only those things domestically and militarily that functoin without computers and networks?
I'm shocked, shocked that you're mixing your arguments.

You cite the alleged vulnerability of civilian networks as evidence that military networks are vulnerable.

Oh and again you are also playing lose with definitions.
The "boots on the ground" philosophy only applies to offensive strategies, when you want to capture and occupy foreign territory.
That by definition is what a "major war against a major power" entails. One of the two sides is going to engage in an offensive strategy or by definition it isn't a "major war".

Now if you want to say that some opponent is going to want to muck up the economy of another country, that's fine, but that isn't a "major war".

Your economic analysis is likely moot in any "major war" scenario that could happen today.

When was the last time that two major military powers engaged in combat and it lasted more than a few months?

Korea.

Insurgencies don't count since by definition they are not wars between major military powers.

So any "Major conflict" is almost certainly to be resolved, one way or another, with the resources both sides have at the start of the conflict. Thus any economic disruption is moot with regards to the military outcome.

Oh and with regard to how "obsolete" those surface combatants were in WWII, you're displaying your ignorance of history.

The vast majority of naval engagements did not involve carriers.

Here's a list of the USN engagements in the Pacific.

Only five of the 25 battles are primarily carrier engagements and one other (Leyte Gulf) was a combination of surface and aircraft.

So if the USN had decided they didn't need surface combatant forces because they had carriers, they would have lost 20 battles by default.

Had the UK forgone their surface combatant forces, the U-boats would have closed the Atlantic and England would have been forced to surrender, never mind the multiple surface battles the RN engaged in against the Italians in the Med.
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
We don't. Not like the Chinese.

What we have is a patchwork mess of agencies and units that do not coordinate with one another, have different missions and capabilites, and none of them who's mission is specifically to be strategically deployed with combined arms military operations.

It's kind of like having 40 different intelligence and law enforcement departments that don't work with one another or share information.

More is not better. More is actually worse.
Sorry you’re wrong

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Old 09-27-2018, 08:10 PM   #38
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Sorry you’re wrong

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I completely agree with Dee. Maybe you should stop taking the word of state media from terrible countries.

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Old 09-28-2018, 06:30 AM   #39
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I completely agree with Dee. Maybe you should stop taking the word of state media from terrible countries.

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Yeah, maybe you're right.

https://homeland.house.gov/hearing/e...united-states/

OK, I found an article that summarizes what I've been trying to say nicely...

Though the American government is widely considered to be one of the premier hacking powers — alongside Israel, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom — China is rapidly catching up by following a drastically different model.

The SSF uniquely conducts several different missions simultaneously that in the U.S. would be happening at the National Security Agency, Army, Air Force, Department of Homeland Security, NASA, State Department and Cyber Command, among others.

If you combined all of those government entities and added companies like Intel, Boeing and Google to the mix, then you would come close to how the SSF is built to operate.

Examining the development of the SSF in relation to Cyber Command provides a view of how two of the world’s most influential countries see the future of conflict. The U.S. agency is a similarly nascent organization but with a more narrow focus and three definitive missions: to protect Defense Department networks, to launch computer network attacks in support of combatant commanders and to “ensure US/Allied freedom of action in cyberspace.” Cyber Command has yet to be elevated to a unified combatant command and as a result, remains tied at the hip to the NSA.

After two years in development, China’s SSF is now positioned to surpass its U.S. counterpart in capabilities — a position that seemed unattainable a decade ago.


https://www.cyberscoop.com/china-ssf...e-pla-nsa-dod/

There are lots of other resources, but I know it doesn't matter.

The United States has enough planes to handle any engagement with any nation already. Our cyber warfare capabilites are grossly inadequate. China and Russia know this, and it will be the cheapest and most effective way to defeat the US in a war, aside from EMP strikes, of course.

Last edited by Baron Samedi; 09-28-2018 at 06:44 AM..
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
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Old 09-28-2018, 06:17 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Yeah, maybe you're right.

https://homeland.house.gov/hearing/e...united-states/

OK, I found an article that summarizes what I've been trying to say nicely...

Though the American government is widely considered to be one of the premier hacking powers — alongside Israel, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom — China is rapidly catching up by following a drastically different model.

The SSF uniquely conducts several different missions simultaneously that in the U.S. would be happening at the National Security Agency, Army, Air Force, Department of Homeland Security, NASA, State Department and Cyber Command, among others.

If you combined all of those government entities and added companies like Intel, Boeing and Google to the mix, then you would come close to how the SSF is built to operate.

Examining the development of the SSF in relation to Cyber Command provides a view of how two of the world’s most influential countries see the future of conflict. The U.S. agency is a similarly nascent organization but with a more narrow focus and three definitive missions: to protect Defense Department networks, to launch computer network attacks in support of combatant commanders and to “ensure US/Allied freedom of action in cyberspace.” Cyber Command has yet to be elevated to a unified combatant command and as a result, remains tied at the hip to the NSA.

After two years in development, China’s SSF is now positioned to surpass its U.S. counterpart in capabilities — a position that seemed unattainable a decade ago.


https://www.cyberscoop.com/china-ssf...e-pla-nsa-dod/

There are lots of other resources, but I know it doesn't matter.

The United States has enough planes to handle any engagement with any nation already. Our cyber warfare capabilites are grossly inadequate. China and Russia know this, and it will be the cheapest and most effective way to defeat the US in a war, aside from EMP strikes, of course.
No EMP will ever happen. 5G is the real future threat (no privacy/extreme high radiation/etc.). The assholes that run the world will never allow any EMP's to happen. That would completely fuck them. It will never happen.
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:46 PM   #41
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No EMP will ever happen. 5G is the real future threat (no privacy/extreme high radiation/etc.). The assholes that run the world will never allow any EMP's to happen. That would completely fuck them. It will never happen.
OK, I'll play.

Tell me, what kind of radiation does 5G emit?
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:56 PM   #42
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:11 PM   #43
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OK, I'll play.

Tell me, what kind of radiation does 5G emit?
You'll play what? More BS?

Look it up...

---------- Post added at 05:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------

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Five what? Xanax?
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:17 PM   #44
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To Honeydew and the other sedated skeptics:

https://www.radiationhealthrisks.com...ers-dangerous/

It's being rolled out with no testing. It was designed in Israel, but, they won't have it there. Gee, I fucking wonder why that would be?

We are human guinea pigs...

There are ways to defend it...but, will you? Big if...
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:33 PM   #45
IU_Knightmare
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Hey, central Indiana is part of the early roll out of 5G. We probably won't be much help in providing a heads up on any early health concerns what with all the obesity, smoking, inbreeding, drug abuse, etc.

https://www.ibj.com/articles/70572-e...less-advantage
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