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Old 09-14-2018, 04:58 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by TipRoast View Post
And you can.
You seem to be suggesting that I shouldn't.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:01 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by johnlocke View Post
Um. Not a libertarian.

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How dare you pimp Ayn Rand and make that claim



Jokes aside how would you describe yourself? Based on your posts I'd have put you somewhere on the libertarian spectrum.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:15 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
You seem to be suggesting that I shouldn't.
Not at all. I would, however, like to see the Bible relegated to the same level as The Iliad, which is the level at which I think you place it, based on your posts in various threads on this topic in the past.

The reason I've been active in this thread is to influence those that may be on the fence with respect to the theist/atheist position and point out reasons why the Bible should be seen as a work of fiction (in the horror genre), and not as a source of scientific or moral authority.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:49 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by TipRoast View Post
Not at all. I would, however, like to see the Bible relegated to the same level as The Iliad, which is the level at which I think you place it, based on your posts in various threads on this topic in the past.
Oh cool we're on the same page. Although I might switch out "relegated" to "elevate" but I have a very high opinion of mythology and a very low opinion of bad history books.

Quote:
The reason I've been active in this thread is to influence those that may be on the fence with respect to the theist/atheist position and point out reasons why the Bible should be seen as a work of fiction (in the horror genre), and not as a source of scientific or moral authority.
For sure scientific authority. Unless used as a record of where science was when it was written. Like all religious texts it's scientifically accurate to it's time period. Probably better ways to do that though. I think there are some interesting moral and ethical observations though. Not at a literal level and I'm not suggesting the Bible as the "source" of these or that they couldn't be found elsewhere.

Example: The story of Cain and Able is a really interesting description of one of the ways human beings find themselves committing atrocities. A person does what they think they're supposed to and doesn't get what they want and blames someone else. They get bitter and resentful and start lashing out. The longer it goes on the worse it gets.

I've seen that happen (not the mass killing) and I'm guessing you have too.

Edit: If you want to point out the problems of a far more literal interpretation of that story I'm not going to disagree.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:44 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by TipRoast View Post
Useful information? Like the notion of vicarious redemption?

Simple question for those reading: Who thinks this video presents an accurate representation of Christianity?
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:34 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
Simple question for those reading: Who thinks this video presents an accurate representation of Christianity?
It depends. Are you asking whether it presents the whole of Christianity? Then no, of course not. If you are asking about whether it reasonably represents the scapegoating and abusive "parent" role of god, then yes, it does.

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Old 09-14-2018, 07:38 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by johnlocke View Post
Fair enough.

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Out of curiosity, John, do you disagree with any of the following statements?

* Only living entities can value something.
* In the absence of living entities, nothing is valued or valuable.
* The process of valuation is purely subjective to living entities.
* Value must be present for an "is" to lead to an "ought".

Last edited by Oswlek; 09-14-2018 at 07:51 PM..
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:49 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
I still haven't seen anything that leads me to believe she understands the issue.

On a side note, Sam Harris has video of two live events he did with Jordan Peterson moderated by Bret Weinstein up on his website right now that spend quite a bit of time discussing this exact issue that (imo) is well worth your time.

They did something at the beginning of both events i really liked which was to steelman each others positions and start by discussing areas of agreement. The second night, they started by each person repeating back to the other what the other person believes until the other person agreed they had it correct. A wonderful idea I wish we utilized more often when we discuss things. Prevents quite a bit of intellectual dishonesty

I also believe I prefer a moderated discussion to a moderated debate. The conversation feels more honest and productive.

Night one - https://samharris.org/sam-harris-jor...ver-night-one/
I completely agree with you about discussion vs. debate. That's why this encounter between Shelly Kagan and William Lane Craig is my favorite "debate" on youtube.



As for the link, I must confess that I have a very low opinion of Peterson. So low, in fact, that I'm loathe to invest more time in listening to his conversations. I know you respect him, so I'll leave it at that.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:53 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
It depends. Are you asking whether it presents the whole of Christianity? Then no, of course not. If you are asking about whether it reasonably represents the scapegoating and abusive "parent" role of god, then yes, it does.
Thanks for responding. Anyone else?
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:05 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
Thanks for responding. Anyone else?
No, of course it does not - but it does represent this type of activity which is so wide-spread everywhere:
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:32 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by RoadNasty View Post
No, of course it does not - but it does represent this type of activity which is so wide-spread everywhere:
So if it doesn't represent Christianity, why did you post it?
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:21 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by tehmackdaddy View Post
So if it doesn't represent Christianity, why did you post it?
Because it accurately portrays many of the ills of religion and Christianity in general - and they are myriad in number. Do all Christians beat their kids? Hell no, that's what I was referring to.
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Old 09-15-2018, 07:25 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Oswlek View Post
Out of curiosity, John, do you disagree with any of the following statements?

* Only living entities can value something.
* In the absence of living entities, nothing is valued or valuable.
* The process of valuation is purely subjective to living entities.
* Value must be present for an "is" to lead to an "ought".
I agree with the first 2 but specifically man and i in no way think a value has to be subjective. Man's life is the objective standard of value and the basis of morality.

Here is an article from Craig Biddle of The Objective Standard on the issue. Unfortunately only the first part which deals with Hume and the consequences of subjectivism is free and not paywalled but the solution is. But maybe something can be discerned.

http://[/https://www.theobjectivesta.../is-ought-gap/

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Old 09-15-2018, 08:05 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
How dare you pimp Ayn Rand and make that claim



Jokes aside how would you describe yourself? Based on your posts I'd have put you somewhere on the libertarian spectrum.
Haha!😂 Actually most libertarians reject Rand as Murray Rothbard did because they tend to believe philosophy is irrelevant although they did take a bunch of her ideas. She absolutely despised libertarians.

As far as how i categorize myself, I don't affiliate myself with any political party. I pretty much agree with some stuff and disagree with a bunch of stuff from all parties.

But if I had to define myself in one word it would have to be Objectivist as I have been since I was young.

As to your post about the discussion style talks. Yes that is a great way to go about it. It would be great if we could do that here. But like O I have no use for Peterson mostly because of his belief that man is doomed to misery. I believe quite the opposite as did Ayn.

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Old 09-15-2018, 08:09 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by johnlocke View Post
I agree with the first 2 but specifically man and i in no way think a value has to be subjective. Man's life is the objective standard of value and the basis of morality.

Here is an article from Craig Biddle of The Objective Standard on the issue. Unfortunately only the first part which deals with Hume and the consequences of subjectivism is free and not paywalled but the solution is. But maybe something can be discerned.

http://[/https://www.theobjectivesta.../is-ought-gap/

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If you agree with the first two, how can human life have objective value?

BTW, the link doesn't work.
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