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Old 05-19-2017, 02:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
No government was Karl Marx' goal too, it's not going to work for him either.
Marx envisioned a stateless society at odds with human nature. Voluntaryists envision a stateless society which embraces that nature, and with which most people act in accordance every single day.

The state is the exception in human history.
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by freak View Post
I don't think that the opportunity was as great as many think. I DO think it was an opportunity to offer a real alternative, instead of the wishy washy "fiscally conservative, socially liberal (tolerant)" position, trying to pander to both sides.
Well, it's all academic now. The LP get sto continue playing Statler and Waldorf and the GOP and DNC can keep their stranglehold on the political system. So I guess they all got what they wanted.

Hooray!
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Old 05-19-2017, 02:57 PM   #18
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Marx envisioned a stateless society at odds with human nature. Voluntaryists envision a stateless society which embraces that nature, and with which most people act in accordance every single day.

The state is the exception in human history.
Huh?

The State has existed at least since the dawn of cities (like 10,000 years ago) and arguably since the dawn of agriculture.

So if you want to count a couple of hundred thousand years of hunter-gatherer existence I guess you have an argument but I don't think we can get back to that unless we wipe out statistically all of the earths human population.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Huh?

The State has existed at least since the dawn of cities (like 10,000 years ago) and arguably since the dawn of agriculture.

So if you want to count a couple of hundred thousand years of hunter-gatherer existence I guess you have an argument but I don't think we can get back to that unless we wipe out statistically all of the earths human population.
Who says there we have to return to hunter gatherers to reject the coercive state?

It's a matter of perspective. As I said, almost everybody adheres to the principles of voluntaryism on a daily basis. They just have a collective hallucination when it comes to government. It's easy to show this to people. It's hard to overcome the cognitive dissonance.

This really isn't the place for it, but I have been mulling over an idea of the Fall of Man as an allegory for humanity turning to collectivism/ The State.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:52 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
Well, it's all academic now. The LP get sto continue playing Statler and Waldorf and the GOP and DNC can keep their stranglehold on the political system. So I guess they all got what they wanted.

Hooray!
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:01 PM   #21
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I wish Obama had pardoned him (her/xe/etc), but a commutation is better than rotting in a cell.

I always found it funny (read appalling) that the guy who set a nuclear submarine on fire because he missed his girlfriend, and endangered an entire region, got 17 years in prison.

But the guy (gal?) who exposed embarrassing and criminal government actions, and was never shown to have endangered anyone, received 35 years.

*Fixed for the feels*
Really?

Read this.
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Old 05-20-2017, 06:04 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Darth Despot View Post
Huh?

The State has existed at least since the dawn of cities (like 10,000 years ago) and arguably since the dawn of agriculture.

So if you want to count a couple of hundred thousand years of hunter-gatherer existence
I guess you have an argument but I don't think we can get back to that unless we wipe out statistically all of the earths human population.
What makes you think there wasn't a "state" during hunter gatherer existence?

There was still a tribe with a ruling hierarchy.

There were rules and sanctions applied to those who violated those rules.

How is that any different?
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Old 05-20-2017, 10:06 PM   #23
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Dominance hierarchys are older than human beings.
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Old 05-21-2017, 06:48 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jaric View Post
No, I'm pissed at the small l and the big l people. Mostly for fracturing and already small minority even further.

Also, I'm not really into "idealogical purity" which the LP seems ****ing obsessed with.

Personally I think they're just more comfortable bitching from the sidelines instead of actually trying to see their ideas be implemented. After all, if what they're proposing gets implemented and doesn't work, they have to admit they're wrong.

Being on the fringe gives you the benefit of an unearned moral high ground and the LP clearly doesn't want to give that up.

/Rantover
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Who is this self-important instigating douche-bag, anyway?
Dude, Baron has been a valued member of this forum for quite some time.
And as I've mentioned, we've all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3599
Setti Warren 2018. Vote Baker out!
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Old Today, 03:30 PM   #25
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Really?

Read this.

https://www.google.com/amp/rare.us/r...ny-deaths/amp/



Oh, and treason is defined in the constitution. I can't take seriously those who throw the charge around without understanding what it entails.
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Old Today, 03:33 PM   #26
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freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.freak is classy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O_P_T View Post
What makes you think there wasn't a "state" during hunter gatherer existence?

There was still a tribe with a ruling hierarchy.

There were rules and sanctions applied to those who violated those rules.

How is that any different?
The State /= ruling hierarchy

The State is a coercive monopoly on the use of force in a given geographic area.

Businesses have ruling hierarchies but that doesn't make them a State.
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Old Today, 03:36 PM   #27
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So are you advocating for a more free market approach to violence?
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