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-   -   OT: Renegged on paying the tab for my lunch date yesterday. (long post) (http://www.patriotsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=11122)

ItsGood_ItsGood 06-10-2005 11:08 PM

The water is boiling, so I'll jump right in.

wyobilz, your post was intelligent, well-considered, thought-provoking and scientific. Mine will be nothing of the kind.

You are right when you say we know nothing about these people; who they are, what their intentions were, what was actually said, etc.

All we the jury can rely on is our own collective knowledge, intelligence and experiences.

To that end, we can conclude:

1. Fusion was hoping to get his swerve on with this woman. What man have you ever met that didn't?

2. Assuming his description of her was true, that Fusion's date knows that men find her attractive.

3. Her lunch order exceeded what the average person would typically order for the typical lunch. (Consider her ordering something just so she can "doggie bag" it.) Particularly, when someone else is picking up the tab. Particularly when she barely knows him, since we can all agree that this was a first date.

4. She has a boyfriend in court, but he's no "ex." If that food she ordered as take-out wasn't intended for him, I'll eat a Red Lobster's shell. As Jack Nicholson said in South of the Border, "A woman takes to an outlaw like a little boy takes to a stray dog."

I would therefore conclude that the predonderance of the evidence suggests that she was using him.

OK, I'm basing this on assumptions, but they are assumptions based on archetypes derived from 40+ years of living on this planet. It is not uncommon for women who fit this girl's general description to use men to gain things. Think Ginger from "Gilligan's Island" or Shannon from "Lost" or any of Trump's wives.

As for Falling Alice's concerns over the woman's safety...I consider all women my equals. Soceity in general demands equal consideration for women, while casting them in the role of helpless victims of cruel, inconsiderate men when it is convenient. Assuming Fusion drove her to this dump and she didn't have her own car (we don't know this) she could call a cab/take public transportation as easily as any man.

Would I have bailed as he did? Probably not. But if I had let myself be taken advantage of as this woman was clearly intending to do, I would have had two options:
A. Be polite, and get played for a chump.
B. Be rude, leave with my self respect in tact.

Fusion made his choice, and I can't fault him for it. Sorry.

Peg 06-10-2005 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ItsGood_ItsGood
The water is boiling, so I'll jump right in.

wyobilz, your post was intelligent, well-considered, thought-provoking and scientific. Mine will be nothing of the kind.

You are right when you say we know nothing about these people; who they are, what their intentions were, what was actually said, etc.

All we the jury can rely on is our own collective knowledge, intelligence and experiences...

What about MY post, Jerry?!?!...
If your initial premise is correct (i.e. ..."we know nothng about these people..."), then how can you justify drawing ANY kind of judgement on them, based upon YOUR 40+ years of life experience????... That is simply INVALID!...
THEY aren't YOU, man!... Sheesh--people can be VERY judgemental these days... You assume the worst of the woman in this instance and you know nothing of her side of the story... Frankly, I don't think that is even RELEVANT here... He simply and very clearly, offered to take her to lunch, "his treat." End of story. End of story. End of story.
Neither parties' behavior is relevant. He invited her to lunch at his treat. 'Nuff said...

Annihilus 06-10-2005 11:47 PM

Annihilus is not sure why folks are getting bent out of shape.

This is an Internet message board. The whole initial post could have been fabricated. Any resultant conversation is just so much highbrow (or lowbrow as the case may be) speculation on a series of events that may or may not have taken place.

As members of a fairly tight-knit online community we like to think of the Planet as 'everything goodness and light' - the fact remains that if you post something on an Internet message board that is bound to draw conversation, you had BETTER be prepared for hearing all kinds of viewpoints.

Not just ones that echo your own.

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ItsGood_ItsGood

As for Falling Alice's concerns over the woman's safety...I consider all women my equals. Soceity in general demands equal consideration for women, while casting them in the role of helpless victims of cruel, inconsiderate men when it is convenient. Assuming Fusion drove her to this dump and she didn't have her own car (we don't know this) she could call a cab/take public transportation as easily as any man.


IG,

You misread my concern. I wasn't so much concerned about the woman's safety. More, my point was that Fusion presents himself in his post as a misogynist who viewed this woman (at least) as little more than a cheap tramp. This is an attitude that few parents want their children to take into the world -- whether they have sons or daughters. But those with daughters are especially concerned about their children being treated and seen in this way.

This said, many girls are taught to be aware of those attitudes and to protect themselves from them. Appropriately so. I have no idea if this woman was doing that. My main feedback for Fusion is, if you see women as nothing more than cheap tramps, then don't be surprised that you're dating women who act like cheap tramps. Because no respectable woman with high self-esteem will have anything to do with you. We tend to get what we're looking for.

He wasn't interested in knowing this woman at all. He was interested in screwing her. That was obvious by his disdain for her "insipidness" and yet, despite his increasing disgust at her and her behavior, was bound and determined to give it one last try to get her into bed.

When she didn't come up with the goods, he felt he didn't owe her his word. In his mind, evidently, there was supposed to be a quid pro quo. An exchange. Sex for lunch.

And he therefore felt justified in treating her as he did.

So, you think he left with his self-respect in tact. In my opinion, he left with the deflated self-esteem of a disappointed john. Because that's the level at which he approached this woman -- from the very beginning.

And whatever false sense of self-respect he may have left with has no doubt been challenged by the...shall we say... mixed reaction he received on an internet message board about his clever little story about the cute little chick with no brain.

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the consequences of Fusion's "beau geste" don't come back to haunt him in the real world in a very nasty way. Through gossip and innuendo about him.

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Annihilus
Annihilus is not sure why folks are getting bent out of shape.

This is an Internet message board. The whole initial post could have been fabricated. Any resultant conversation is just so much highbrow (or lowbrow as the case may be) speculation on a series of events that may or may not have taken place.

As members of a fairly tight-knit online community we like to think of the Planet as 'everything goodness and light' - the fact remains that if you post something on an Internet message board that is bound to draw conversation, you had BETTER be prepared for hearing all kinds of viewpoints.

Not just ones that echo your own.

Hey Anni...

I'm not sure anyone's any more upset than they were before. I think this is just one of those discussions where people have strong viewpoints.

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 06:49 AM

Re: yooooowwwwwwwZZZZZZZZa...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by wyobilzfan


That said, if the facts (not the perception of conversation, but how the physical actions of the date took place) are accurate.....

He agreed to take her to lunch HIS treat.

She demonstrated little if any concern about the price of the lunch and ordered what would be considered in our dominant culture items leading to an excessive price tag.

What we don't know is far greater than what we do know in this situation, so to speculate on his or her motives I believe are like shooting darts in the dark.


Wyo,

Excellent post as always. Thanks for the "psychobabble lecture."

I hope you know that, for my part, I never really assumed to know this woman's mind. My original piece of comical fiction was intended as a satirical way to suggest to Fusion that maybe the joke was on him and that perhaps the woman he thought so little of was a whole lot brighter and a more complex person than Fusion seemed to give her credit for being.

Beyond that, I think most conjecture about the "girl" and her state of mind was really more a general discussion about culture and sexual politics.

This said...excellent analysis as always. I can't wait for the book. Let me know when it's out.

WY-Oregasm 06-11-2005 08:20 AM

I hear ya, sister... so of course once I take my clinical hat off, my rotten sense of humor cannot be constrained a moment longer:


My vote goes to getting her best looking friend to take him to bed and just when he's ready to....... jump up, and walk out of the room...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...


And that is, of course... followed by her friend telling everyone what a lousy piece of *** he is in the sack.


People should be very careful about what they start with their actions.



DISCLAIMER: The above comments were meant for entertainment purposes only.

mikiemo83 06-11-2005 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wyobilzfan

My vote goes to getting her best looking friend to take him to bed and just when he's ready to....... jump up, and walk out of the room...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...


And that is, of course... followed by her friend telling everyone what a lousy piece of *** he is in the sack.


People should be very careful about what they start with their actions.



DISCLAIMER: The above comments were meant for entertainment purposes only.


Women do this? I'm speachless. Why did we let them burn their bras, why can't we go back to bare foot and pregnant in the kitchen.

DISCLAIMER: The above comments were meant for entertainment purposes only.

I think the word is already out in the gym, from both fronts, she told her friends and he told his. What needs to be told is fusion telling us how things worked out. What B.S. followed when he saw her next.

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mikiemo83

I think the word is already out in the gym, from both fronts, she told her friends and he told his. What needs to be told is fusion telling us how things worked out. What B.S. followed when he saw her next.

If the poor sorry sonofabitch is still alive.

For his sake I'm hoping he didn't run up against Bideau's daughter.

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wyobilzfan
I hear ya, sister... so of course once I take my clinical hat off, my rotten sense of humor cannot be constrained a moment longer:


My vote goes to getting her best looking friend to take him to bed and just when he's ready to....... jump up, and walk out of the room...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...


And that is, of course... followed by her friend telling everyone what a lousy piece of *** he is in the sack.

DISCLAIMER: The above comments were meant for entertainment purposes only.

Gentlemen....

You have just enjoyed a brief glimpse of the women's locker room.

WooooHOOOOOOO!!!!

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 09:32 AM

Re: Re: yooooowwwwwwwZZZZZZZZa...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Undertaker #59
I would just like to pop back into this thread for a moment to say that the statement quoted above from the lovely Wyo is the point I was trying to make.

The guy was a new poster and he was absolutely killed before we had that much information.


Over and out.

On this point I would argue. I know nothing of the state of mind of the woman. She never posted. I actually know a great deal about the state of mind of Fusion.

This is a community of words. Of posts. Our "personalities" on this board are entirely reflected in words.

I trade in words. And on PatriotsPlanet, I live in words.

Is the man who "Fusion" represents much more complicated in real life than he is on an internet board? Undoubtedly. So am I. So are you. So is everyone.

Nevertheless, I do not have a relationship with whomever Fusion is in the real world. I have a relationship with the fictional internet persona, "Fusion."

And Fusion's essay was more than long enough to give me a very clear picture of his viewpoint, cultural attitudes, assumptions and emotive style...as well as his objectives within the story he presented.

This is not unlike the tendency in the real world to make strong and sometimes intractable judgments of people within 5 minutes of knowing them based on their attitude, language, deportment, appearance, etc. Many people object to the fact that assessments are made so quickly. As a fundraising and OD consultant I can only advise clients of this sometimes unfair fact of life.

On PatriotsPlanet, as in life, you pays your money, you takes your chances. Fair or not.

bideau 06-11-2005 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FallingAlice
If the poor sorry sonofabitch is still alive.

For his sake I'm hoping he didn't run up against Bideau's daughter.

He'd be talking in an unusually high pitch if he did :p She still has her kick boxing gloves and softball bat with her in Virginia.

FallingAlice 06-11-2005 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bideau
He'd be talking in an unusually high pitch if he did :p She still has her kick boxing gloves and softball bat with her in Virginia.
:thumb:

You've got a helluva daughter.

mgoblue101415 06-11-2005 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FallingAlice

He wasn't interested in knowing this woman at all. He was interested in screwing her. That was obvious by his disdain for her "insipidness" and yet, despite his increasing disgust at her and her behavior, was bound and determined to give it one last try to get her into bed.


Um... You just described 90% of men. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of the conversation from When Harry Met Sally. Harry's going on and on about how horrible this date was. Then Sally says something about how it will take a while for them to feel comfortable with someone else, and even longer before they can sleep with someone else. Harry then tells her "I slept with her."

Or how about the current Bud Light commercial (pretty sure it's Bud Light) where the annoying girl goes to freshen up and the guy takes a call from a buddy. He tells him the girl's annoying or something, but he's desperate. Course, when she comes back out the parrott starts repeating what the guy had said.

What makes these things so funny is that they are TRUE. That's men. Some men are better at hiding it, but that doesn't change the fact that they think that way. 99% of the time a man asks a woman out he's not thinking "I'd really like to get to know her better." he's thinking "I'd really like to get her into bed." Now, he may really like her, and may see a future with her, but sex is the #1 priority.

Men only care if a woman is annoying if they live with her, or are dating her. For sex, they could care less. Ask men if they'd sleep with Jessica Simpson. The large majority are going to say yes. Bring up her stupidity and the majority answer is going to be something along the lines of "I'm just sleeping with her" or "she doesn't need to talk in bed."

See, men, for the most part, don't care. They just want sex.

And even married men or men in a relationship think the same way. They take their wife or girlfriend out for a nice romantic dinner they're doing it for one reason... To get laid. You think most men really want to get dressed up, shell out a bunch of cash, and carry on a conversation all night because they enjoy it? They know the woman likes it, so they do it to make her happy, and if she appreciates it they're expecting her to sleep with him. And when the couple gets home and the woman's tired and doesn't put out.... She'll be dealing with one pissy husband/boyfriend the next day.

That's life. :shrug:

Condemn the guy for walking out and not paying for the entire bill, but to condemn a guy for only wanting sex.... Well, you're condemning the the vast majority of the male race. They are what they are. :shrug:

Undertaker #59* 06-11-2005 10:31 AM

That is an overly simplistic view of men, MGO.

Sure sex motivates us, but it isn't everything. For example, I would never, and have never slept with a woman on the first date. There has got to be more emotion in the relationship for me to make that kind of step. I don't say this to make myself sound better, but as an example. I am sure there are plenty of other men who feel the same way. To tell you the truth, if a woman WANTS to sleep with me on the first date, she would be refused and I probably would not want to see her again.

I am sure that the majority of men that you would meet in a meat market would not have the same qualms, but I would bet there are a lot more men out there who feel the same way as I do than you realize.

$0.02


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