Should Paul Hamm give back the gold medal?

[TrueBeliever]

This isn't exactly a political topic, but it sorta is and anyway I didn't think it belonged in the regular board.

THere may not even be talk about this anymore now that the games are over, but I want to know what everyone thinks about the Paul Hamm business. As you may or may not know, he's the American gymnast who won a gold medal due to a judge's scoring error; the gold really should have gone to a Korean gymnast.

His coaches say since it was the fault of the judges, they should give the Korean a second gold medal. The Korean team and the judges say that since Hamm didn't earn it, he should give back the medal on his own.

Thoughts?

[Ballbustah]

Judges error....
Give it back...

[dchester]

I think he should keep it. They can award another Gold medal to the Korean gymnast. It's not as if that hasn't been done before.
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[bideau]

No way should he give it back.

The Koreans could have followed protocol and registered a protest immediately after the event, but they didn't. It's no different than an NFL teams losing the right to request a replay after the next play is started. Human error is part of the sport.

Here's a what if....What if, in last year's game in Miami, Olindo Mare doesn't choke and hits the winning FG in OT after the refs blew a blatant call when the Fins receiver caught a ball out of bounds? Do you think the NFL would reverse the result? What about last year, when Seattle lost to Baltimore because the refs allowed the Ravens an extra timeout?

Also, if the Koreans want the tenth of a point added back, then the judges should review the tapes and deduct a tenth for the Korean making a blatant error, which was revealed by the the network analysts.

[#1Patsfan_chica]

He should keep it because it was not his fault and he did have a good performance. They should just award another metal to the Korean gymnast.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by bideau
Also, if the Koreans want the tenth of a point added back, then the judges should review the tapes and deduct a tenth for the Korean making a blatant error, which was revealed by the the network analysts.

That familiar phrase: We've got BINGO is appropriate here. No doubt Hamm should keep the medal. Either that or review EVERYTHING by tape review - which isn't going to happen.

[Ballbustah]

It was a scoring error.
He really didn't win it.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by Ballbustah
It was a scoring error.
He really didn't win it.

It was more accurately a JUDGING error (a scoring error yes, but made BY A JUDGE) - just like the other errors that were missed by judges but not counted (one in particular against said Korean gymnast). If you count that, then the Korean really didn't win it either.

[Ballbustah]

Maybe I'm missing something here.

If it was a judgment error or a scoring error then why would anyone think he should keep the Gold?

He didn't earn the medal... It was a mistake.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by Ballbustah
Maybe I'm missing something here.

If it was a judgment error or a scoring error then why would anyone think he should keep the Gold?

He didn't earn the medal... It was a mistake.

About the only thing you'd be missing is that judgement errors happen all the time in gymnastics and figure skating, diving, etc. The scores aren't 'changed' after the fact and people that 'really didn't win' end up with the medals all the time.

The football analogy was explained by Bideau:

Here's a what if....What if, in last year's game in Miami, Olindo Mare doesn't choke and hits the winning FG in OT after the refs blew a blatant call when the Fins receiver caught a ball out of bounds? Do you think the NFL would reverse the result? What about last year, when Seattle lost to Baltimore because the refs allowed the Ravens an extra timeout?

Sh!t happens. That's the way it goes.

[Ballbustah]

Yes... But they all know it was a Judgement/scoring error.

I think there is a tremendous difference between an NFL Football game and Olympic gymnastics.

[BizarroAnnihilus]

Originally posted by Ballbustah
Yes... But they all know it was a Judgement/scoring error.

I think there is a tremendous difference between an NFL Football game and Olympic gymnastics.

Yes, there is a difference between the two 'sports', but I don't see that the differences are all that relevant in this conversation.

I think what I'm saying (along with the IOC) is that this happens all the time in gymnastics and if there hasn't been a precedence set in the past to reverse the decision, I see no reason to suddenly set one now. If you miss it at the time of the event, then too bad so sad. Just like in 'real' sports like football.

If the precedence had been set when this happened in the past that the judges decision be reversed, then I could see them taking away his medal. As it is now, I don't see that happening.

[Ballbustah]

Well I guess I'm just old fashioned.
I figure if the guy won it on a scoring error he doesn't deserve it.

[O_P_T]

Originally posted by Annihilus
I think what I'm saying (along with the IOC) is that this happens all the time in gymnastics and if there hasn't been a precedence set in the past to reverse the decision, I see no reason to suddenly set one now.

Actually if there is a precedent, it is for him to keep his medal and give another gold to the Korean.

That's what they did with the figure skating kerfuffle at Salt Lake City.

After the deal with the French and Russian judges became known, they simply gave another gold (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/schedule/figure_skating/index.html) to the Canadians and let the Russians keep theirs.

[dchester]

Originally posted by Ballbustah
It was a scoring error.
He really didn't win it. To me, changing it now makes about as much sense, as say changing the winner of a football game because it was determined after the game that the refs blew a call that would have changed the score of the game.

A hypothetical example, say in the third period, a team attempts a field goal and the refs say it missed. That team goes on to lose the game by 1 point. Later on (after the game), a reply shows that the field goal actually was good. You don't add the points on after the fact and change who won the game. Part of the reason for this is that you can't predict what would have happened differently if whoever was in the lead had changed.

I don't see any difference with what happened in the Olympics. Maybe the Korean would have choked if he knew he had a lead going into the final competition. Maybe Hamm would have taken more risky maneuvers. Who knows what might have happened?
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[bideau]

Originally posted by O_P_T
Actually if there is a precedent, it is for him to keep his medal and give another gold to the Korean.

That's what they did with the figure skating kerfuffle at Salt Lake City.

After the deal with the French and Russian judges became known, they simply gave another gold (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/schedule/figure_skating/index.html) to the Canadians and let the Russians keep theirs.

Major difference. The gymnastics fiasco was a scoring error, a plain and simple human mistake. The ice dancing incident was a backroom deal to fix the results, in other words, cheating.

[O_P_T]

Originally posted by bideau
Major difference. The gymnastics fiasco was a scoring error, a plain and simple human mistake. The ice dancing incident was a backroom deal to fix the results, in other words, cheating.

So if someone cheats you get to keep the medal, but if its just plain error you have to give it back?

If the whole idea of changing the medals is to rectify a "wrong" it seems to me that cheating is a greater "wrong" than human error.

So if they allowed the Russians to keep their medals in that case, then they should allow Hamm to keep his in this case.

[bideau]

Originally posted by O_P_T
So if someone cheats you get to keep the medal, but if its just plain error you have to give it back?

If the whole idea of changing the medals is to rectify a "wrong" it seems to me that cheating is a greater "wrong" than human error.

So if they allowed the Russians to keep their medals in that case, then they should allow Hamm to keep his in this case.

That's not what I was saying. I've been saying all along that Hamm should keep the medal.

What I said here is that the ice dancing scandal is not a precedent for the gymnastics situation because the circumstances were different. Actually, I feel that both the Russian and French skaters should have been stripped of their medals, even though they weren't directly involved with the cheating. But their skating organizations were involved, therefore, an example should have been set that the cheating won't be tolerated. Dual golds was a lame assed way of trying to ignore the cheating.

Bottom line for me....legitimate human error, results stand; conclusive proof of cheating, lose the medal.

[Ballbustah]

I'm just a simple guy who thinks in real terms.
If there was a mistake in the scoring… which gave Hamm the Gold, then I believe the mistake should be corrected.
I do not care if there is history showing a complete breakdown in sanity among the judges.
There is one gold, one silver and one bronze. The real winner who competes and does best should be the soul winner of those medals.
Erroneous scores, inept and cheating judges should not have influence on the outcome.

[bideau]

Originally posted by Ballbustah
I'm just a simple guy who thinks in real terms.
If there was a mistake in the scoring… which gave Hamm the Gold, then I believe the mistake should be corrected.
I do not care if there is history showing a complete breakdown in sanity among the judges.
There is one gold, one silver and one bronze. The real winner who competes and does best should be the soul winner of those medals.
Erroneous scores, inept and cheating judges should not have influence on the outcome.

So, going with that, every game in every sport should be reviewed afterwards to ensure that no mistakes were made. If so, then someone will have to decide if the outcome was affected and overturn the results, if necessary. If its not possible to decide, then the game or event should be resumed at the point of the mistake.

Let's go back to the Snow Bowl tuck replay. Do you know that if that play had happened less than a minute before, it would not have been reviewed? The Pats were out of timeouts before the two minute warning, therefore, by rule, they could not have challenged the play. It was only reviewed because inside of the two minute warning, only an official in the press box can call for a replay. Do you think the NFL would have reversed the results of the game if the Pats had lost it, even though the replay clearly would have shown it fell under the tuck rule?

[Ballbustah]

As I understand it the gymnastic competition understood that there was an error in the scoring within minutes of the competition.
I am not saying that any sport in the history of sports be reviewed to see if there is any inconsistency in the scoring. Mistakes are made.
But where judging is involved where judges give scores to decide the outcome of the sporting event… If there is an error… correct it immediately and give the medals to the ones deserving it. Don’t give it to a person that due to a mistake in scoring ended up falling in his lap.

As far as the tuck rule...
I clearly remember Woodson whacking Brady's arm before it had stopped it's forward motion.
That they did not change the rule is a clear indication that it was called correctly.

And if the ref had gotten the call wrong.... well he didn't... Besides we are not talking about a scoring error. The score was what it was. There was no scoring error by a judge to consider in the Snow Bowl. Just a call that was made correctly according to the Rules & Regulations of the NFL.

[kirjtc2]

There is precedent for the Hamm situation. Sylvie Frechette, a Canadian synchornized swimmer, lost out on the gold in 1992 because of a typo made by one of the judges (8.2 instead of 9.2). Once the mistake was realized, she got the gold. BUT the woman who won the gold initially, an American (forget her name), got to keep hers too.

That's what I think should be done in this situation.

JPK