What do you believe? Separation of Church and State?

[townes]

I believe that separation of church and state is fundamental to american society, and that it promotes faith and religion, rather than stifling it. I oppose any attempt to characterize america as a "christian nation" and believe such attempts are antithetical to the very principles this country was founded upon.

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Originally posted by townes
I believe that separation of church and state is fundamental to american society, and that it promotes faith and religion, rather than stifling it.
So far I agree.
I oppose any attempt to characterize america as a "christian nation" and believe such attempts are antithetical to the very principles this country was founded upon.
Now you lost me. What do you mean? That the country isn't over 50% Christian? It is, and it isn't close. That being the case, the underlying Christian thought will, like it or not, color the voting patterns and belief systems of the people, and thus affect the government's actions and the world's view of the U.S.

Now, these "Christians" are a pretty disparate group of folks, and don't exactly vote as a bloc, but the 2 party system and electoral college tends to force politicians to somewhat moderate stances on broad issues, so I feel pretty comfortable asserting that the underlying Christian thought filters down (up?) to the governments' actions.

So, if you mean to characterize it as a Christian nation in order to be able to govern a certain way, I agree with you. But as far as a definition, it's sort of hard to get around. For whatever it's worth, and however it gets interpreted and compromised away, America is governed from a base of Christian thought.

[dchester]

Originally posted by townes
I believe that separation of church and state is fundamental to american society, and that it promotes faith and religion, rather than stifling it. I oppose any attempt to characterize america as a "christian nation" and believe such attempts are antithetical to the very principles this country was founded upon. Part of the problem in debating on "Separation of Church and State", is getting a consensus on where it came from (how it was created), since the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution. In addition, if you accept that it is "Constitutional", there is also a debate on what it actually means. Whenever these new edicts are created (or discovered) by the court, it becomes difficult to end debate on the subject, since the average citizen can't point to something in the Constitution and say "this is it". Contrast this to the debate about what the boundaries of Free Speech, or the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. People may disagree about what the limits are, but it can't be denied that they are in the Constitution. In my opinion, this is what makes this debate so difficult to conduct.

Some people will say that "Separation of Church and State" was supposed to keep the Government from restricting how religion is to be practiced. Others say it is to keep religious speech out of anything public. Myself, I say they are both wrong, and that until such time that the Constitution is amended to put that phrase in, or the Congress passes a law to make it so, it shouldn't be enforced (even if it is a nice idea).

Here are the two places in the U S Constitution where the subject of religion is addressed.

Constitution of the United States (http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/constitution.html)

Article VI (http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html) (Clause 3)
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Amendment I (http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
________
jailbroken (http://jailbroken.org/)

[Tiger_69]

Politics and religion do not make good bedfellows should not ever be married, especially in this country.

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Originally posted by Tiger_69
Politics and religion do not make good bedfellows should not ever be married, especially in this country.
How so?

How can you stop citizens and/or elected officials from being influenced by their faith/worldview/philosophy of life when they vote or act in their official capacity?

How far would you take it? Should an elected official never mention God? A "higher power"? Never read the Bible/Koran/Talmud/Tao? Never attend chuch/temple/mass/mosque/service? Never consult with religious or lay ministers/religious leaders? Should leaders have to apostacize themselves if asked directly about their faith?

Tell me what the rules are, and I'll abide by them. But please make it clear.

[Prometheus441]

The seperation of Church and State is indeed a constitutional issue and was written in for the purpose of making sure that
goverement did not form any "Organized religion",it was not meant supress religion,IMO.If you ask the question as to if religion should have a place in goverment,then I would say that
the vast majority of Americans believe in some form of religion and there for should be represtented.I am not a big fan of organized religion but I can understand that most are and wish
to not see that belief disregarded.The fact that people would use
the seperation element to keep people from putting up Christmas
decorations on the town common ,just seems a bit over the top and silly to me.

[O_P_T]

As dchester points out, the first amendment prohibits the establishment of a church linked to the government.

The reason for this was the history of this in Europe.

Often a specific religion was established as the state religion in a given country and any other religion was persecuted.

Many people came to America to obtain religious freedom. This is what they were trying to avoid.

It is also quite clear that the founding fathers did have faith.

Look at the text of the Declaration of Independnece (http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html)

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --

Clearly, they did think religion had a place in the country.

[PA_PATS_FAN54*]

Now I know I'm out on an island on this one ........BUT I feel there should never be a direct connection between any religion and the government.
I understand and fully accept an individual (including our President) will be guided by his/her beliefs but that should not go to the extent of alienating 40 some odd% of US citizens.If the catholic church (or any other religion) where to have a say in voting for the laws that govern our nation then you wouldn't have freedom of religion in the first place. Your beliefs,actions would be looked upon and judged on the beliefs of another.
Now I was raised catholic , i was an alter boy,went through CCD,etc etc. now as an adult I can freely say I do not believe in the bible. It was written by men throughout history and contains numerous inconsistencies never mind complete omissions.
Not that anyone really cares about my "religious beliefs" lol just figured i'd give a small sample of my mind set as to why i feel the way I do.
and being a lazy bastard I'm ending my ranting now before i subject everyone here to my poor grammar and punctuation skills.:D

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Originally posted by PA_PATS_FAN54
[B]Now I know I'm out on an island on this one ........BUT I feel there should never be a direct connection between any religion and the government.I'm not sure that ANYONE has disagreed with this.
I understand and fully accept an individual (including our President) will be guided by his/her beliefs but that should not go to the extent of alienating 40 some odd% of US citizens.If the catholic church (or any other religion) where to have a say in voting for the laws that govern our nation then you wouldn't have freedom of religion in the first place. Your beliefs,actions would be looked upon and judged on the beliefs of another. I'm not sure what you're saying here. I don't think anyone is saying that the Church (or any church) should get a vote, except insofar as its members can vote. Has someone proposed something different when I wasn't looking?

What do you mean when you say "should not go so to the extent of alienating 40 some odd% of US citizens"?
Do you think that the government should be strictly areligious? Everything should be open on, for example, Christmas? Or everything should be closed on any religious holiday that anyone celebrates? If the governmetn doesn't recognize any religious observances, is that biased towards atheists?

Again, tell me what the rules are, and I'll abide by them, but please, be clear.

[PA_PATS_FAN54*]

Originally posted by Flagg Wanderer
[B] First where I'm on an island is the part where I do not believe in the bible.
that is my opinion I do not expect anyone to agree with my views nor do I judge the views of another. ?

[QUOTE]Now you lost me. What do you mean? That the country isn't over 50% Christian? It is, and it isn't close. That being the case, the underlying Christian thought will, like it or not, color the voting patterns and belief systems of the people, and thus affect the government's actions and the world's view of the U.S.

By you saying that over 50% of the country are Christian are you saying that only those citizens of this fine country are correct?

Again, tell me what the rules are, and I'll abide by them, but please, be clear.

I may be wrong but your coming across as being a tad bit condescending and confrontational in this post ...... is it because I don't believe in the bible or because I'm a lesser person because of the fact i don't believe in the bible? I am only giving MY views on this topic and not attacking you in the least.
I can agree that I tend to throw my thoughts out there and will go off on tangents(I come here because I enjoy this site not to go over each of my posts with a fine toothed comb) I guess that's part of the reason why i never went into journalism. forgive me sir I will try to be more concise for know on. I am as you know a lesser person to you :rolleyes:

Do you think that the government should be strictly areligious? Everything should be open on, for example, Christmas? Or everything should be closed on any religious holiday that anyone celebrates? If the governmetn doesn't recognize any religious observances, is that biased towards atheists?
On the contrary I believe every religion should have their specific holidays observed. I'm not irish but St.Patty's day is one of my personal favs. :thumb:

[Flagg the Wanderer]

Originally posted by PA_PATS_FAN54
By you saying that over 50% of the country are Christian are you saying that only those citizens of this fine country are correct?No, I'm just saying that because Christians are a majority, and the nation is functionaly a democracy, basic ideals of Christianity are going to be reflected in both parties to some degree, as well as in our system of holidays, procedure, etc.

I may be wrong but your coming across as being a tad bit condescending and confrontational in this post ...... is it because I don't believe in the bible or because I'm a lesser person because of the fact i don't believe in the bible? I am only giving MY views on this topic and not attacking you in the least.Yes and no. I was being a little condescending, and I apologize. It wasn't because of your statement of faith (or lack thereof), it was because your original statement in the thread seemed to be sort of tossed out there and not particularly thought through. It's something I find a lot when this subject arises, and it gets a little stale. That's why I'm ending my posts with the "please be clear" line. I didn't mean to take it out on you.

But see, it's all well and good do say "separation of church and state" - I agree. But what does it mean in practice?

I can agree that I tend to throw my thoughts out there and will go off on tangents(I come here because I enjoy this site not to go over each of my posts with a fine toothed comb) I guess that's part of the reason why i never went into journalism. forgive me sir I will try to be more concise for know on. I am as you know a lesser person to you :rolleyes: No, it's not about that, and it's not about your faith/non-faith. Believe what you want. I just have a habit of calling people out on things that aren't well thought through. I'm a lawyer, so its sort of how I tick. I don't think that the current state of establishment clause law is well thought through, nor is it consistant.

On the contrary I believe every religion should have their specific holidays observed. I'm not irish but St.Patty's day is one of my personal favs. :thumb: I can agree with you there - the more holidays the better, or I'm moving to Europe, where workers typically get 6 weeks/year. Shame that my (American) law degree will be worth less over there, though.

I agree that there shouldn't be a state religion. I agree that religious institutions should not hold sway over public policy. But what that means in practice...I dunno.

[PA_PATS_FAN54*]

. I am as you know a lesser person to you
Ok ok i admit I was being condescending as well.

It seems we differ in opinion on this argument but we can agree on some small points and agree to respectfully disagree on the rest.

Does this mean we kissed and made up?:confused:
( not in the "gay sense mind you ..not that there is anything wrong with "gay")
another thing that burns my azz ..... being "politically correct" uggg I wont go there :D